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    #16
    That's all my Lehmans have. Just a simple solenoid shut-off arrangment. Power off... they close...
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    iBoatNW

    1980 CHB Europa 42 Trawler- "Honey Badger"

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      #17
      whywhyzed wrote:
      Westerbeke uses one of their solenoids on their perkins 4-108 setup here (item 15-3):

      http://"http://www.marinedieseldirec...ors=&comment1=
      Thanks for the part number! In the workshop manual for the Perkins 4.108, there is no reference whatsoever to a solenoid for the fuel shut off. The lack of a reference left me wondering if it was an afterthought.

      ksanders wrote:
      So, Why would you go with a actuator on a cable rig that shuts off the fuel when a simple 12 volt solenoid can be used that does the exact same thing with allot fewer moving parts?

      Fuel shutoff solenoids are pretty common off the shelf stuff. Why re-engineer something like this?
      The actuator cable would go to a separate location where the solenoid would be mounted. Referencing the photo in the first post, there is no location for this solenoid to be mounted without a bracket being fabricated. And even so, it would be a difficult undertaking because of space constraints. The actuator cable would allow the solenoid to be mounted in a more convenient location. It is more of a convenience/practicality factor; otherwise, I would agree with you...fewer parts are better and less prone to failure.

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        #18
        Astral Blue wrote:
        Thanks for the part number! In the workshop manual for the Perkins 4.108, there is no reference whatsoever to a solenoid for the fuel shut off. The lack of a reference left me wondering if it was an afterthought.

        The actuator cable would go to a separate location where the solenoid would be mounted. Referencing the photo in the first post, there is no location for this solenoid to be mounted without a bracket being fabricated. And even so, it would be a difficult undertaking because of space constraints. The actuator cable would allow the solenoid to be mounted in a more convenient location. It is more of a convenience/practicality factor; otherwise, I would agree with you...fewer parts are better and less prone to failure.
        Ed, I'd just make it easy on myself. Take the feed from the fuel tank to the engine, install a 12V solenoid anywhere in that path. Tie the solenoid to the key switch and you're done. No need to over think this. I've literally done it a hundred times. Piece of cake. I'd personally use something like an ASCO red hat valve. Available at Graingers, or just pick a diesel rated solenoid valve, lots of manufacturers available.

        Your perkins engine is not unique in its odd factory means of shutdown. I've seen lots of old engines with gadgets like air valves, etc... The fuel solenoid replaces that outdated stuff. It is the industry standard methodology to stop a diesel engine. I have done this for a living for a very long time. I promise it will work.

        KEVIN SANDERS
        4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA
        www.transferswitch4less.com

        where are we right now?

        https://maps.findmespot.com/s/36S4

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          #19
          My dad had an industrial engine in his boat for a while, a Nissan ED-30 4 banger.

          We simply rigged a manual choke cable into the cabin of the boat. It worked great. Dock your boat, go to neutral then saunter down and pull the cable.

          If you go the solenoid route, why not have a cable as a backup?

          Chay

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            #20
            cfoss wrote:
            If you go the solenoid route, why not have a cable as a backup?
            No need. They fail in the OFF position so even if the solenoid quit... the engine would by default power off. No need for a cable mechanism. If mine failed and I needed to get home, I would just zip tie the lever until I got back to port.
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            iBoatNW

            1980 CHB Europa 42 Trawler- "Honey Badger"

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              #21
              IMHO and for the sake of safety many mains are rigged so that they would 'fail' in the on position. That way they can always be stopped by hand as posted here but they cannot suddenly deny the captain power in rough seas that could present a clear danger. Rough seas and poor conditions with water flying around and impacts are normally when you would find a failure taking place with these systems. This is the same reason why mains are rigged with things like low oil pressure 'alarms' instead of just wiring in shutdown mechanisms like gensets have. It allows the captain to make a risk/reward decision based upon what his information is at hand. So I would suggest seriously considering rigging the failure mode to be in the 'on' position which could easily be overided during 'normal' situations of failure.

              Hope this helps
              Northport NY

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                #22
                smitty477 wrote:
                IMHO and for the sake of safety many mains are rigged so that they would 'fail' in the on position. That way they can always be stopped by hand as posted here but they cannot suddenly deny the captain power in rough seas that could present a clear danger. Rough seas and poor conditions with water flying around and impacts are normally when you would find a failure taking place with these systems. This is the same reason why mains are rigged with things like low oil pressure 'alarms' instead of just wiring in shutdown mechanisms like gensets have. It allows the captain to make a risk/reward decision based upon what his information is at hand. So I would suggest seriously considering rigging the failure mode to be in the 'on' position which could easily be overided during 'normal' situations of failure.

                Hope this helps
                While that advice is interesting, IE having the failure mode leaving the engine running, that is just not how modern diesel engines operate. Every modern diesel engine fails to the shutdown state. Every single one. Remove power from the injection pump or the fuel solenoid on a modern diesel and it turns off.

                Engines USED to have air dampners and other mechanical means of shutting them down but those are typically designs that pre-date reliable relay coils. Typically we see these type of shutdowns on pre WWII engine designs.

                KEVIN SANDERS
                4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA
                www.transferswitch4less.com

                where are we right now?

                https://maps.findmespot.com/s/36S4

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                  #23
                  Hi Kevin,

                  "While that advice is interesting, IE having the failure mode leaving the engine running, that is just not how modern diesel engines operate. Every modern diesel engine fails to the shutdown state. Every single one. Remove power from the injection pump or the fuel solenoid on a modern diesel and it turns off."

                  I am sure that you are correct but I am out of state for a couple of weeks and not near any of the diagrams we have at home. When we had failures in the fuel soleniods on the EH700 engines (Hino 175 & 220 hp) I remember that we would need to go down and manually 'push' the fuel link in to shut the engine down. I remember that too well cause I ended up doing it more then a couple of times for Ron during one cruise. The correct 'repair' ended up being a poor groud wire to the soleniod which when improved upon allowed the shutdown to work as 'normal'.

                  Thanks for the heads up and information.
                  Northport NY

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                    #24
                    I just spoke with a marine mechanic who has an extensive amount of experience with this particular engine. He is the one who sold it to me and has been working on the Perkins 4.108 for 20+ years and is very familiar with it. According to him, an in-line fuel shut of solenoid is not a viable option. With how the injector pump on the Perkins 4.108 is designed, an in-line fuel shut off would deplete the fuel inside the injector pump and cause it to take on air. Starting the engine would be troublesome because it would require a bleeding of the pump. Additionally, the injector pump is not designed to be run without fuel in it; and doing so would result in undue wear.

                    Kevin's advice for the in-line solenoid is much appreciated and applicable to many other Diesel engines, but the design of the injector pump on the Perkins 4.108 does not lend itself to using such a kill method. Cummins, Universal (Kubota) and most Volvo-Penta injector pumps can take it...but the Perkins is a different monster in itself.

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                      #25
                      Astral Blue wrote:
                      I just spoke with a marine mechanic who has an extensive amount of experience with this particular engine. He is the one who sold it to me and has been working on the Perkins 4.108 for 20+ years and is very familiar with it. According to him, an in-line fuel shut of solenoid is not a viable option. With how the injector pump on the Perkins 4.108 is designed, an in-line fuel shut off would deplete the fuel inside the injector pump and cause it to take on air. Starting the engine would be troublesome because it would require a bleeding of the pump. Additionally, the injector pump is not designed to be run without fuel in it; and doing so would result in undue wear.

                      Kevin's advice for the in-line solenoid is much appreciated and applicable to many other Diesel engines, but the design of the injector pump on the Perkins 4.108 does not lend itself to using such a kill method. Cummins, Universal (Kubota) and most Volvo-Penta injector pumps can take it...but the Perkins is a different monster in itself.
                      Well, we learn something new every day. I have never heard of that, but in all honesty I've not worked on a 4.108 before. That is a strange one. Very odd.

                      KEVIN SANDERS
                      4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA
                      www.transferswitch4less.com

                      where are we right now?

                      https://maps.findmespot.com/s/36S4

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                        #26
                        I just replaced the fuel solenoid on my 35 year old Onan generator. That particular solenoid cost about $125 and pushed out ward when activated about 3". I think you could easily mount a bracket on the motor with a short piece of rod linkage to handle your shut down problem. This is a common system on many Diesels and very reliable. Why make it a complicated problem? Detroit, Westerbeke, Cummins, International, Cat, Onan, Ford Lemam. all use similar systems.

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                          #27
                          Why not just buy the solenoid that the original engine would use, wire it up and be done with it. It's really quite simple. I'm gonna check mine this afternoon and see if it fails "on" or fails "off".
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                          iBoatNW

                          1980 CHB Europa 42 Trawler- "Honey Badger"

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                            #28
                            SomeSailor wrote:
                            Why not just buy the solenoid that the original engine would use, wire it up and be done with it. It's really quite simple. I'm gonna check mine this afternoon and see if it fails "on" or fails "off".
                            The original design of this engine used a manual pull cable. A solenoid was designed into the later versions of this engine, after some modifications to allow it to be mounted. My engine's build is designed for the manual cable.

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                              #29
                              Sheesh.... purchase a Universal Stop/Start Fuel Rack Control Solenoid, make the modifications necessary, connect it up and be done.

                              I believe that this one is a Universal Stop/Start Fuel Rack Control Solenoid that can be purchased through Woodward


                              Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
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                                #30
                                Astral Blue wrote:
                                The original design of this engine used a manual pull cable. A solenoid was designed into the later versions of this engine, after some modifications to allow it to be mounted. My engine's build is designed for the manual cable.
                                As was mine. (1980 Ford Lehman) It's a pretty popular retrofit too. Easy to install and not complicated.
                                Custom CNC Design And Dash Panels

                                iBoatNW

                                1980 CHB Europa 42 Trawler- "Honey Badger"

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