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    1979 Bayliner/Chris Craft powered

    Hello,


    Can anone offer some input? We are trying to get our boat going before summer ends with is soon here in Greenland.

    We are having a hard time getting the engines to start. Tell you what we have done and were we are at currently. We ended up repowering the boat with 2 reman engines.(one was stuck). We installed a new flame thrower distributer, coil, plugs and wires. We also installed new fuel mechanical lift pumps, carbs, and starters. We ran both engines out of the boat before installing to try and work any kind of problems before going into the boat. Got both engines timed at 10 BDC and it was ran with good oil pressure, temps okay, and good water flow out of exhasut. Ran them to seat cams for about 25 min. Both engines started, but they started hard before we put them in the boat. When it was out of the boat, I dismissed it as a weak battery, and didnt really worrry because of all of my electrical wiring was eliminated except 1 of my battery wires that I used to start while out of the boat. (I will replace that Monday, just to get in out of my head). I am lost with this now.

    I feel the staters spin too slow. I am used to car and truck starters. They spin a 350 way faster than the new starters that I have spin. I have ARCO Marine 3 bolt starters installed. Do they always spin rather slowly? I have never heard a good running older Chris Craft motor start. Voltage reading at the single post terminal of the starter during cranking is about 11.05 v. (Battery voltage is 12.6) We tried a new battery and same thing. I am dropping about a 1.5v before the starter somewhere, but unsure of where or if that is too much.
    What do you think?
    Also is there a wiring schematic of these older 79 Bayliners/Chris craft powered boats available anywhere?
    The batteries- it had 2 that I believe were wired in Parallel. I have tried parallel wiring 2 good batteries to boost the cranking amps. It made it a little better, but still a little too slow cranking than what I like to hear. The starter solenoid is new as well.

    Also seems the starter will not stay engaged and keep things spinning. Its like it will spin over a time or to and release (zing sound). Retry, retry and same thing. Interesting thing this is a new starter- reinstalled the old starter- spun just a little faster and got it to start once while in boat, but cant get a consistent start. I would think the new starter would be better?? Each time I try to crank for extended periods I will flood the engine. I have to remove the back 4 plugs, clean and retry. I paint marked my timing while it was out, so I would not second quess while in boat, but I am at the point of second quessing everything now- Like why did I start this project .


    Thanks in advance for any help.
    JRW



    #2
    It is very common for a starter motor to take the voltage down to around 10.5 or 11 volts while cranking.

    Post a picture of your starter motors. It may be that they are the non-gear reduction style. Worse yet, they may be the old Bendix style!
    If so, I would take them back and would replace them with the HTGR/PMGR style, just like most of today’s engines use. This will improve your cranking speed tremendously !

    I would also look further than just setting BASE advance.
    You will want to see what the progressive advance is doing, and where the total advance is during the “full in” RPM.


    .
    Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
    2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
    Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
    Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
    Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

    Comment


      #3
      As Rick points out, the new PMGR starters are physically smaller in size, weigh less, and spin much faster. It’s the only way to go IMO. Ensure your battery cabling is in good condition and of the proper gauge for the total length of the run including the negative return path.
      Those are some real nice looking engines!
      Dave
      Edmonds, WA
      "THE FIX"
      '93 2556 5.7 Bravo II 2.0:1 18 1/4x19 P
      (.030 over-Vortec top end-part closed cooled)
      The rebuild of my 2556 https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...76?view=thread
      Misc. projects thread
      https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...56-gctid789773

      Comment


        #4
        OK.... with the old ChrisCraft I/Bs and with the mention of a 3 bolt pattern starter motor, you may have one of these below.
        By the way, these come in from the rear and mount directly to the flywheel cover........ not to the cylinder block as an I/O starter motor would!

        This is an Arco non-gear reduction Bendix drive style.
        These are relatively slow turning, heavy Amp Hungry, they must have a powerful battery and large Positive and Negative battery cables in order to create quick armature torque to throw the Bendix drive/pinion gear into the flywheel's ring gear.
        Low battery voltage may prevent these from working.

        While these may be robust, they are very inefficient at cranking an engine over with any speed!


        Click image for larger version  Name:	starter motor ARC50160 bendix drive.jpg Views:	0 Size:	7.9 KB ID:	532465
        Note the Bendix thread (steep spiral cut splines) that the sprag clutch/pinion gear affair glides on!
        The steep spiral cut splines allow quick armature torque to kick the pinion gear out into the flywheel ring gear.
        Low voltage = no kick out = no engine start up.

        Examples ONLY!

        Image result for cut view of bendix drive starter motor







        Here is another Arco style non-gear reduction starter motor.
        These use a solenoid and lever action to throw the sprag clutch/pinion gear into the flywheel's ring gear.
        Better than the Bendix drive style, but still rather inefficient at cranking the engine over with any speed.



        Click image for larger version  Name:	starter motor MES5312M arco style .jpg Views:	0 Size:	14.8 KB ID:	532466

        Here is an example only of the solenoid lever action.
        As the solenoid retracts, it makes electrical contact and simultaneously pulls the lever back of which kicks the pinion gear out into the ring gear!

        Good system, but without gear reduction and high speed armature, these are still rather inefficient at spinning crankshaft with any speed.









        Here is another Arco in a HTGR/PMGR ( high torque gear reduction/permanent magnet gear reduction) style.
        These use solenoid lever action, and a planetary gear reduction system.
        The armature spins approx 3 Xs faster than that of the non-gear reduction motors.



        Image result for inboard 3 bolt pattern chriscraft sbc starter motor


        Here is another more expensive HTGR/PMGR unit used with ChrisCraft.
        These also use solenoid lever action, and a much better spur gear reduction system. Armature spins approx 3 Xs faster than that of the non-gear reduction motors.




        Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
        2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
        Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
        Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
        Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

        Comment


          #5
          While I agree with Rick and Dave’s suggestion of going with a gear reduction starter the older styles were around for decades starting engines so there must be some issue from getting yours running. You have good voltage at the starter while under load (cranking and getting 11.05V). Try removing the starters with all wires attached then use a jumper cable to connect the starter housing to negative to see if it spins faster. Since it won’t have the load of trying to turn the engine over it should spin very fast. When you measured voltage at the starter where were you getting the negative connection? I suggest you should use the starter mount to verify power as that is what the starter is seeing. Painted surfaces will be an insulator reducing current flow. Beautiful looking engines.
          1997 Maxum 2400 SCR 5.7LX Bravo II

          Mike

          Comment


          • 2850Bounty
            2850Bounty commented
            Editing a comment
            Honestly..... the Old Bendix style and the non-gear reduction style motors just don't cut the mustard!

          • Nauti_Mike
            Nauti_Mike commented
            Editing a comment
            Yes but it should still start his engine just like all the cars you owned up to the 2000’s

          #6
          I suspect that all the beautification the OP has caused a resistance return path through painted metal, so while a modern starter may get the engines running they will still be starved for power.
          1997 Maxum 2400 SCR 5.7LX Bravo II

          Mike

          Comment


            #7
            Yea thought about my painted surfaces- bypassed with a thick new ground wire from the battery to one of the starter bolts. Made no difference. For whatever reason I drop .25v on my new ground wire but swapped with another and same so ?? Made sure the mating surfaces there were clean. I am going to try a different battery and see what happens. I

            Comment


              #8
              Batteries were questioned from the start but supposedly they test good at local shop.

              Comment


                #9
                Jwrig, please see post #4!​​​​
                Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                Comment


                  #10
                  My starter is the first one you listed in #4. I tired a new battery, it just about started, but unable to. Popped off a couple of times and quite. I was using my old starter but can only get a 3 or 4 tries and its like the starter is hot (it is warm with touch of hand, not super hot) and will not turn engine. My new starter will make alot of noise like the drive is not releasing fully. It came with the inertia drive gears so it will stay out upon removal. I am not sure if both starters are toast. Maybe I wrecked em trying to start the engine. I know it started hard out of the boat, but didn't really think much of it figuring I had a battery issue at the time. Now that it is in the boat the only thing that is different is the transmission installed. Which spins a little while in neutral. Maybe this is too much on the starter? I would have to slide trans back to confirm that.
                  With the #4 post and the other starters pictured, are any of the HTGR/PMGR ( high torque gear reduction/permanent magnet gear reduction) style an option for mine? I can not tell by the picture. I called ARCO and they say no. I have to make the current style starter that I am using work?? I know I dont have alot or room above the starter due to cooler brackets, but suppose things can be modified.

                  Comment


                    #11
                    So the starters are mounted to the flywheel cover as Rick mentioned in post #4? Since you have ruled out a bad return path with 5he jumper and got new batteries with better results. It sounds like the timing may be off making it harder to start but at this point I would spend some time seeing if you can make a HTGR/PMGR fit. All that crank8ng heating up the starters most likely degraded them.
                    1997 Maxum 2400 SCR 5.7LX Bravo II

                    Mike

                    Comment


                      #12
                      The first starter motor in my post #4 is the old I/B Bendix style, non-gear reduction. Even while new, these are Amp Hungry and slow cranking.

                      The second starter motor is also an I/B non-gear reduction using solenoid lever action. Amp hungry and slow cranking.

                      The third starter motor is an I/B high torque gear reduction/permanent magnet gear reduction unit. Less Amp hungry, faster cranking.

                      The forth starter motor is a more expensive I/B style high torque gear reduction using spur gear reduction. Less Amp hungry, faster cranking.

                      Baring no strange ChrisCraft components, any of these should work with your Borg Warner I/B engine flywheel cover.



                      Originally posted by jwrig
                      My starter is the first one you listed in #4.
                      Ok.... that is what I suspected.
                      Again, that is a non-gear reduction, Amp Hungry, slow cranking, inefficient starter motor that uses a Bendix drive.
                      See my explanation pertaining to the Bendix drive function.

                      By the way..... Bendix is a company name.
                      You may find a starter motor sprag clutch pinion drive that was manufactured by the Bendix company.
                      Don't confuse this with the Bendix style starter motor.


                      I tired a new battery, it just about started, but unable to. Popped off a couple of times and quite. I was using my old starter but can only get a 3 or 4 tries and its like the starter is hot (it is warm with touch of hand, not super hot) and will not turn engine. My new starter will make alot of noise like the drive is not releasing fully. It came with the inertia drive gears so it will stay out upon removal. I am not sure if both starters are toast. Maybe I wrecked em trying to start the engine. I know it started hard out of the boat, but didn't really think much of it figuring I had a battery issue at the time. Now that it is in the boat the only thing that is different is the transmission installed. Which spins a little while in neutral. Maybe this is too much on the starter? I would have to slide trans back to confirm that.
                      With the #4 post and the other starters pictured, are any of the HTGR/PMGR ( high torque gear reduction/permanent magnet gear reduction) style an option for mine?
                      Yes! See post #4 again.

                      I can not tell by the picture. I called ARCO and they say no. I have to make the current style starter that I am using work??
                      Call a different supplier.
                      And shame on that Arco sales person for even suggesting this old Bendix style starter motor!


                      I know I dont have alot or room above the starter due to cooler brackets, but suppose things can be modified.
                      The HTGR/PMGR starter motors are typically much smaller.

                      Originally posted by mike
                      So the starters are mounted to the flywheel cover as Rick mentioned in post #4?
                      Mike, I made that assumption based on Jwrig's comment regarding the 3 mounting bolts.

                      Since you have ruled out a bad return path with 5he jumper and got new batteries with better results.
                      It sounds like the timing may be off making it harder to start
                      Yes, as per my earlier suggestion as well.
                      I would suggest that he back off on the 10* BASE advance. Perhaps bring it down to 6* or 8* BTDC.



                      but at this point I would spend some time seeing if you can make a HTGR/PMGR fit. All that cranking heating up the starters most likely degraded them.
                      Good call!
                      jwrig, my suggestion..... Get rid of those old school Bendix style starter motors!



                      If you order new starter motors, make sure that you order the correct rotation starter motors.

                      This image shows the correct starter motor rotation for both Standard LH Rotation Engines and Reverse RH Rotation Engines.

                      NOTE:
                      the image shows both I/O style FWD of flywheel mounting and I/B style AFT of flywheel mounting.
                      In other words..... AFT facing starter motors, and FWD facing starter motors!



                      Click image for larger version  Name:	Starter motor rotation explained 2 .jpg Views:	0 Size:	35.1 KB ID:	533111


                      Click image for larger version  Name:	starter motor pinion drive types.jpg Views:	1 Size:	207.8 KB ID:	533114


                      Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                      2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                      Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                      Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                      Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                      Comment


                        #13
                        Okay so if I were going retard the timing a couple of degrees - without hooking light up and actually climbing in the hole and watching- which way will I turn it - looking from the back of the engine to the front- standard rotation engine. I have tried to do move distributer a little either way and didn't think it made a difference. It seems I only get a couple of turns of the engine and it will flood really easy. So maybe a fresh start of the plugs with the timing retarded to 6-8 and retry??
                        There is a night and day difference of the other engine and this one just spinning them both with the starters. I am leaning towards a mechanical engine issue at this point. Although that trans is troubling me because it drags as well while spinning engine. I really thought it started hard out of the boat, but it started.
                        Were the rochester carbs that easy to flood an engine? A few cranks and if doesnt go shes flooded. Back plugs are soaked. This was why I installed new carbs to eliminate any kind of dirty carb issues. Wish I would have went EFI now. Thanks for the input.

                        Comment


                          #14
                          The ARCO gear reduction starter, 2nd from the bottom... do you know the part number? Looking at ARCOs website, not seeing it. The replacement would be for my current ARCO 50161 CCW starter. Asked around couple different suppliers, saying its a no go. Will have to upgrade the bell housing??

                          Comment


                            #15
                            ..........
                            Originally posted by jwrig43 View Post
                            Okay so if I were going retard the timing a couple of degrees -
                            You will not necessarily be retarding the timing...... you will simply be moving it from 10* BTDC to 6* to 8* BTDC, causing the triggering event to occur 4* to 2* later!

                            without hooking light up and actually climbing in the hole and watching- which way will I turn it -
                            OK..... the distributor shaft/rotor rotates CW and also turns the oil pump!
                            In order to advance the triggering event, you will rotate the distributor housing CCW.
                            In order to back off on the advance you would rotate the distributor housing CW.


                            looking from the back of the engine to the front- standard rotation engine.
                            If you have both LH and RH rotation engines, and due to the oil pump rotation, both distributors shafts/rotors rotate the same direction....... CW.

                            I have tried to do move distributer a little either way and didn't think it made a difference. It seems I only get a couple of turns of the engine and it will flood really easy. So maybe a fresh start of the plugs with the timing retarded to 6-8 and retry??
                            Marine Engine Ignition advance is extremely critical.
                            I would strongly suggest that you set the timing by using a good name brand timing light, and that you verify that your TDC marks are accurate!
                            If questionable, you will need to perform a PPS procedure!

                            I will also suggest that you look further than just BASE advance, and see what the progressive and total advance are doing.


                            There is a night and day difference of the other engine and this one just spinning them both with the starters. I am leaning towards a mechanical engine issue at this point. Although that trans is troubling me because it drags as well while spinning engine. I really thought it started hard out of the boat, but it started.
                            Were the rochester carbs that easy to flood an engine? A few cranks and if doesnt go shes flooded. Back plugs are soaked. This was why I installed new carbs to eliminate any kind of dirty carb issues. Wish I would have went EFI now. Thanks for the input.

                            Since you've made no comment re; the old school Bendix style starter motors...... it appears that you do not think that these are part of the slow cranking problem!
                            Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                            2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                            Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                            Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                            Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                            Comment


                            • builderdude
                              builderdude commented
                              Editing a comment
                              Post 14, you must have been typing when he posted🤔
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