New charging system needed - help me install the best item . . . . please-gctid406516

[Dadrock33]

Yep, just got off the phone with Professional Mariner and they're telling me that my Flyback 15-3 is "kaputzche" (that means "its shot") . . . went through all the tests and measured everything with "this" on and "that" off and vice versa but guess my luck isn't exactly holding out . . . . SO . . . they suggested the Pro Nautic P 1240 to be able to charge both the starting batteries and the house battery banks.

Here's what I have now: 2003 yr - 2452 Bayliner Classic Cruiser Hardtop with the "Advantage Pac" and the 7k BTU air conditioning and macerator discharge kit (don't know if it works yet), 5.0 Liter Merc with Alpha One outdrive

#1 - (2) Deka flooded starting batteries (about 90amphrs each) connected to an MBSS under the helm seat and that system NOW needs a charger setup. (although they are being charged by the engine while running, right? or does it need a separate charger?)

#2 - would like to keep in consideration during discussions - solar charging panels (put up on the hardtop) to help charge both battery banks (no shore power where I'm at)

#3 - (2) West Marine SeaVolt Deep cycle 90s (Group 27) for "house batteries" and they are hooked up to a Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger and also has a mysterious red wire that comes from the back of the alternator post . . . but no return wire (black) - doesn't it need one? Looks like someone wanted the engine alternator to charge the house batts but don't think that is happening the way that it is wired.

I'm in the process of drawing a schematic of the whole system as it sits now so that I can eliminate some of the "mess" that I think I have . . . finding a lot of things that don't work . . . . definitely a project boat (don't tell my wife I said that).

Appreciate any and all contributions and opinions. Thanks.

[2850Bounty]

I can't believe this. Just last week we helped a guy with a BOC name similar to yours. https://"http://www.baylinerownerscl...is thread.</b>

Why....., we even gave him some icons to play with so he could make up a schematic to show his existing battery bank configuration.

:kidding.

Dadrock33 wrote:
SO . . . they suggested the Pro Nautic P 1240 to be able to charge both the starting batteries and the house battery banks.

#1 - (2) Deka flooded starting batteries (about 90amphrs each) connected to an MBSS under the helm seat and that system NOW needs a charger setup. (although they are being charged by the engine while running, right? or does it need a separate charger?)

#2 - would like to keep in consideration during discussions - solar charging panels (put up on the hardtop) to help charge both battery banks (no shore power where I'm at)

#3 - (2) West Marine SeaVolt Deep cycle 90s (Group 27) for "house batteries" and they are hooked up to a Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger

4.... and also has a mysterious red wire that comes from the back of the alternator post . . . but no return wire (black) - doesn't it need one? Looks like someone wanted the engine alternator to charge the house batts but don't think that is happening the way that it is wired.

I'm in the process of drawing a schematic of the whole system as it sits now ..................

I have to begin this one with a question.

Since you have the Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger, and since this will be charging your HLBB, why the additional 3 bank charger?

The Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger will have an eco charge for the SLBB, so you should not require an additional O/B charger.

BTW, read the specs for this a 40 Amp, 3 bank charger to see how the 40 amps are divided.

It may offer 40 amps divided X 3.

#1 - Why two batteries in your #1 cranking bank?

#2 - solar charging panels can be included afterwards.

#3 - Your Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger (when used near capacity) is going to be hungry. You really need to consider 6 Volt Golf Cart batteries for this, and possibly four of them.

4... Best to see photos of this, IMO.

[Dadrock33]

2850Bounty wrote:
I can't believe this. Just last week we helped a guy with a BOC name similar to yours. https://"http://www.baylinerownerscl...is thread.</b>

Why....., we even gave him some icons to play with so he could make up a schematic to show his existing battery bank configuration.

:kidding.

I have to begin this one with a question.

Since you have the Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger, and since this will be charging your HLBB, why the additional 3 bank charger?

The Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger will have an eco charge for the SLBB, so you should not require an additional O/B charger.

BTW, read the specs for this a 40 Amp, 3 bank charger to see how the 40 amps are divided.

It may offer 40 amps divided X 3.

#1 - Why two batteries in your #1 cranking bank?

#2 - solar charging panels can be included afterwards.

#3 - Your Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger (when used near capacity) is going to be hungry. You really need to consider 6 Volt Golf Cart batteries for this, and possibly four of them.

4... Best to see photos of this, IMO.

To Your question: I don't know really . . . that was his recommendation after we talked about the house batts, originally he suggested the P 1215 since it was similar to the Flyback model. PS: what is an eco charge for the starting batts?

1 - . . wow, feeling dumb here . . . cause that was what was in the boat? . . , guessing that the DC usage for the Lowrance HS-7 (two of them - one chart and one sonar) and lights, etc. required two batts . . . this boat was down in Delray Beach, FL for about 8 yrs, maybe they wanted the redundancy

2 - good

3 - thought they might be underpowered for all that they're supposed to run but like they say . . . .. "that was what was in the boat when I bought it"

4 - drawing it up now . . . . rather, the evil twin is

[johnrupp]

Dadrock33 wrote:
Yep, just got off the phone with Professional Mariner and they're telling me that my Flyback 15-3 is "kaputzche" (that means "its shot") . . . went through all the tests and measured everything with "this" on and "that" off and vice versa but guess my luck isn't exactly holding out . . . . SO . . . they suggested the Pro Nautic P 1240 to be able to charge both the starting batteries and the house battery banks.

Here's what I have now: 2003 yr - 2452 Bayliner Classic Cruiser Hardtop with the "Advantage Pac" and the 7k BTU air conditioning and macerator discharge kit (don't know if it works yet), 5.0 Liter Merc with Alpha One outdrive

#1 - (2) Deka flooded starting batteries (about 90amphrs each) connected to an MBSS under the helm seat and that system NOW needs a charger setup. (although they are being charged by the engine while running, right? or does it need a separate charger?)

#2 - would like to keep in consideration during discussions - solar charging panels (put up on the hardtop) to help charge both battery banks (no shore power where I'm at)

#3 - (2) West Marine SeaVolt Deep cycle 90s (Group 27) for "house batteries" and they are hooked up to a Xantrex Freedom 1800 inverter/charger and also has a mysterious red wire that comes from the back of the alternator post . . . but no return wire (black) - doesn't it need one? Looks like someone wanted the engine alternator to charge the house batts but don't think that is happening the way that it is wired.

I'm in the process of drawing a schematic of the whole system as it sits now so that I can eliminate some of the "mess" that I think I have . . . finding a lot of things that don't work . . . . definitely a project boat (don't tell my wife I said that).

Appreciate any and all contributions and opinions. Thanks.

Dadrock,

In response to your questions.

#1- If boat is wired correctly starting batteries should be charging when engine is running. An easy test is to use a voltmeter and check voltage on starting batteries with the engine off. They should be in the 12.5 to 12.7 volt range. Now start engine and recheck voltage at the batteries. Should be in the 13.8 to 14.4 volt range with the engine running. As Rick said you shouldn't need a separate charger for your starting batteries. The Freedom 1800 can be wired to charge both banks.

#2- Solar charging can be added at any time after you figure out your charging system.

#3- If boat is wired correctly a positive lead coming from the alt is all you will have. Most alternators are grounded to engine via the mounting brackets. The batteries negatives should all be tied together and grounded to the engine thus completing the circuit. You can check to see if they are charging via the alternator by following the same test as in answer #1.s

Until you get this figured out make sure you don't turn off either MBSS with the engine running. It could easily fry your alternator depending how your boat is wired. Try to get a schematic posted as soon as possible. I also boat at Lake Clarke, hope to meet you on the water someday.

[2850Bounty]

Dadrock, I'm glad that you understood my teasing you!

johnrupp wrote:
Dadrock, Until you get this figured out make sure you don't turn off either MBSS with the engine running. It could easily fry your alternator depending how your boat is wired. Try to get a schematic posted as soon as possible.

Great advice!

I got a phone call three days ago regarding no alternator output. During this man's story, he mentioned that his son had turned the MBSS OFF while the engine was running.

Case closed.... new alternator on order!

Dadrock33 wrote:
To Your question: I don't know really . . . that was his recommendation after we talked about the house batts, originally he suggested the P 1215 since it was similar to the Flyback model. PS: what is an eco charge for the starting batts?

[COLOR]"#0000FF" wrote:
I'm thinking that he didn't know about the Xantrex Freedom series Inv/Chgr, of which should have you covered for both the HLBB (house load batt bank) and the SLBB (start load batt bank) if your model has the Eco charge feature.

(I just looked up the Freedom 1800, and I keep seeing the Xantrex Freedom HF model and I'm not seeing the eco charge listed)

Take a look at your Freedom 1800 literature and see if it discusses the eco charge.

If it does offer the "eco" charge, this charge lead will/should take care of the #1 SLBB when connected.

The Freedom 1800 main battery cable connections provide charging to the HLBB..... so IOW, you will NOT see a seperate charge lead for the HLBB.

[/COLOR]

1 - . . wow, feeling dumb here . . . cause that was what was in the boat? . . , guessing that the DC usage for the Lowrance HS-7 (two of them - one chart and one sonar) and lights, etc. required two batts . . . this boat was down in Delray Beach, FL for about 8 yrs, maybe they wanted the redundancy

[COLOR]"#0000FF" wrote:
Our #1 bank is our cranking or starting bank. We typicaly use only one good high-amperage cranking battery here.

Our #2 HLBB will typically be made up of multiples. 6 volt GC batteries (paired 2 in series) can offer more Amp Hours..... and we're after Amp Hours here! [/COLOR]

2 - good

3 - thought they might be underpowered for all that they're supposed to run but like they say . . . .. "that was what was in the boat when I bought it"

[COLOR]"#0000FF" wrote:
Yeah, it's common to think or hope that the previous owner did things correctly. [/COLOR]

4 - drawing it up now . . . . rather, the evil twin is

[COLOR]"#0000FF" wrote:
Good! Keep in contact with him, and keep him straight! [/COLOR]

My comment about the Freedom 1800 being "hungry" pertains to using the 1800 Watt capacity. Inverters are big power consumers, and in particular when nearing the full output........ let's say during producing 1,500 to 1,800 watts of AC power.

The larger the HLBB, the less chance of depleating the HLBB below 50%.

You'll need to do the math and calaculate your anticipated daily loads. See what this converts to in terms of Amp Hours.

**Try to NOT draw this bank down below 50%.

The other issue is bringing the HLBB back up to near full SOC (state of charge) and the sooner the better for battery longevity.

(deep discharges, the number of deep discharges, and the duration left in the SOD (state of discharge) is was shortens battery longevity)

So you can see that ther's a price that we pay for AC wattage via our Inverters.

**Xantrex offers a "LINK" battery monitoring system that will interface with your Freedom sereis Inv/Chgr.

The LINK will give you data in the form of Amp Hours In/Out. Amp Hours are a much more meaningful reading over than of Voltage readings only.

At a glance and a push of a button......., it will give us Amp Hours being used, Amp Hours being charged, Amp Hours remaining, etc.

For anyone with larger House Loads, this is a very valuable instrument to own.

See if you can get that Evil Twin busy on that schematic.

.

[Dadrock33]

2850Bounty wrote:
Dadrock, I'm glad that you understood my teasing you! My comment about the Freedom 1800 being "hungry" pertains to using the 1800 Watt capacity. Inverters are big power consumers, and in particular when nearing the full output........ let's say during producing 1,500 to 1,800 watts of AC power.The larger the HLBB, the less chance of depleating the HLBB below 50%.You'll need to do the math and calaculate your anticipated daily loads. See what this converts to in terms of Amp Hours.**Try to NOT draw this bank down below 50%.The other issue is bringing the HLBB back up to near full SOC (state of charge) and the sooner the better for battery longevity.(deep discharges, the number of deep discharges, and the duration left in the SOD (state of discharge) is was shortens battery longevity)So you can see that ther's a price that we pay for AC wattage via our Inverters.**Xantrex offers a "LINK" battery monitoring system that will interface with your Freedom sereis Inv/Chgr.The LINK will give you data in the form of Amp Hours In/Out. Amp Hours are a much more meaningful reading over than of Voltage readings only.At a glance and a push of a button......., it will give us Amp Hours being used, Amp Hours being charged, Amp Hours remaining, etc.For anyone with larger House Loads, this is a very valuable instrument to own.See if you can get that Evil Twin busy on that schematic. .

OK, it took some coercing . . . and three Michelob Ultras, but "evil twin" finished the schematic . . . . no snickering, please . . . . he's sensitive. . . hmmmm, ok, can't show it . . . . have to scan and then do it as a ".jpg", I guess . . . . as Awnold would say: "I'll be back!"Told you I'd be back:

http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/...pict.jpg[/img]and there it is . . . . I hopeI hope you can see it cause I can't until I get out of here. Anyway, things I noticed: think you're right Rick, I don't need an additional charger for the starter batts, the Xantrex should be able to handle it (according to their drawings in the manual) but I need to install a battery isolator first and then I need to make sure that the house batts are grounded back to the engine (no wire that I could find). Also, shouldn't the Xantrex ground wire go back to the motor instead of to the negative post?.. . . . . One last comment (I hope), the GFI receptacles in the forward cabin are showing an "open neutral" according to my tester and I can't "test" and then "reset" like I should be able to do with a GFCI so I think that is probably shot too. I really like that LinkPro or LinkLite setup that you mentioned too. I will be looking at putting one of those on the dash.Looking forward to hearing from everyone. Thanks again for the help. . . . . oh yeah, finally figured out how to charge the house batts properly and there is a transfer switch but it is marked "parallel" and that plastic piece slides up to restrict the movement of the SP2 switch if you want to throw the parallel switch (assuming one shore power cord is being attached).

[2850Bounty]

Dadrock and evil twin....., you can do what you propose, and I supose it would work.

However, I see some things that would be issues for me.

I'm still not understanding your need for two cranking batts. Do you have some concerns that cause the need for two???

Nor am I understanding why you'd want to separate the two HL Batts. Two separate HL batts will be more prone to a draw-down below 50% each, whereas if these were grouped together, you'll be less likely to draw the pair of them down below 50%.

Lets say that each batt offers 100 AH

Lets say that your daily draw is 55 AH

At the end of the day (or next AM), this leaves a single batt with only 45 AH.... or below 50% discharge rate.

Now lets use both batts whereby the pair equal 200 AH.

Let's use the same 55 AH daily load.

At the end of the day (or next AM) this leaves 145 AH........., or well above 50% SOC.

Grouped together, they're going to last longer.... not only in terms of available AH, but in terms of battery longevity!

However, you still need to recharge sooner than later so that the bank doesn't remain in a SOD for lengthy durations.

***********************

As for the LINK system, make sure that the one you purchase is capable of all Freedom series Inv/Chgr functions.

As for the LINK location..... I just don't see people mounting these at the helm. IMO, they are much more convenient when located near our 12 volt distribution panel.

Your call on that.

Isolators offer a .7 voltage drop, unless they have changed technology.

I'd rather see you use an ACR (auto charge relay) or a VSR (voltage sensing relay).

The Xantrex Inverter unit can work independently from the engine's 12 volt charging system, and directly from the HLBB.

This may be why you're seeing only one POS and only one NEG cable being shown going directly to the HLBB.

When on shore power, the Charger portion brings the HLBB up to charge.

However, in order for engine alternator charging to occur, an additional HLBB NEG must make a "system negative common" connection ( I.E., engine block connection.)

IOW, you will have the two large cables (POS/NEG) connected directly to the Inverter, and you will have an additional NEG cable making a "system negative common" connection.

The alternator interface will occur within the engine harness via the MBSS (or via an ACR/VSR).

(see my image below)

IMO, what's missing from your schematic, would be a HLBB interface with a primary MBSS (I see that you show 2 MBSS's).

This leads me to think that you may not be understanding how your Engine Harness interfaces with the Hull Harness, of which eventually powers your House Loads.

An easy fix..... would be to loose the second starting battery, and bring the HLBB in on #2 terminal of a primary MBSS.

Or....... give each cranking battery a #1 and #2 position on a seperate MBSS, then bring the Common over to your "Primary" MBSS, and give the HLBB a #2 position on the Primary MBSS.

(see image)

Now your engine alternator charging is fairy standard and simple via the MBSS selection.

But again..... why the two cranking batteries each making an independent "Primary" MBBS connection (as per your image)?

I'd sooner see you use the space for increasing the HLBB capacity..... but if you have good reason for this..... then go for it!

The Inverter Auto-Transfer switch allows the inverter to sense when shore power is present, and/or NO shore power.

In the absence of S/P, the Auto-Transfer switch will tell the inverter to supply the AC panel (when the inverter is ON).

When S/P is available, by default the Auto-Transfer switch will tell the inverter to drop out of the loop.

************************************

As you can see in this schematic......, the center MBSS would be the "Primary", and the MBSS to the left would be for the two SL Batts only, but with an interface to the primary MBSS.

You can toggle between SL Batteries with the left MBSS.

And/or you can toggle between Engine/House Load "sources" via the primary MBSS.

#1 would be for cranking.....

#2 would be for when on the hook or dock side!

Here's something that may be note worthy:

Look at the house load supply (to all existing house loads). Follow this to the engine. Note the interface with the starter motor and "common" cable.

Note that the alternator also makes it's connection here.

Follow the common cable to the MBSS common terminal.

Select a "source" and follow this cable to the battery selected.

This should show you that the MBSS is nothing more than a "source selector" when drawing power....... and nothing more than a "destination selector" when alternator charging.

(s/p charging is a bit different in that the MBSS can/may be turned OFF for this....... so try not to confuse the two)

This schematic is an example only.

Attached files [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/710634=30467-Dadrock Prototype MBSS sch.jpg[/img]

[Dadrock33]

http://bluesea.com/category/78/80/productdocs/8686

Was doing some reading of the specs on all the different products from varying manufacturers and ran across this while I was reading up on ACRs . . . . . wouldn't the 8690 panel take care of all the issues and put it all in one spot at the same time?? For $190 plus the ACR ($90 at Overton's) and a small negative dist buss, that doesn't seem too bad. . . .. big fan of KISS (keep it simple, stupid - which applies to me in a general way)

The two starting batts were in there when I bought the boat so that's the only reason for them.

You are correct, the house batts should be connected to do just as you stated . . . . couldn't see the forest for the trees . . . . hadn't gotten to that part yet . . . . just figured out how to charge them properly, that would double the amp hours and stay at 12V . . . . not a problem there, will do.

Sure do appreciate all your typing and expertise . . . . you make things easy to understand and logical . . . appreciate it

[k2duck4]

Thank you 2850 Bounty, For the first time some one has explained to me how my charging system should work in terms that i actually understand and makes sense to me. Thanks again for the information and now i can correct all the mistakes i my have made on my own charging system. Great diagrams and explanations.

Ken

[2850Bounty]

Dadrock33 wrote:
Sure do appreciate all your typing and expertise . . . . you make things easy to understand and logical . . . appreciate it

k2duck4 wrote:
Thank you 2850 Bounty, For the first time some one has explained to me how my charging system should work in terms that i actually understand and makes sense to me. Thanks again for the information and now i can correct all the mistakes i my have made on my own charging system. Great diagrams and explanations.

I actually ripped it off from another web site! :kidding

Seriously, that's what we're here for, and I'm glad that it made sense to you.

Ken, your system is likely different in that your HLBB is actually dedicated to house loads only..... (I believe).

IOW, it may not be dependant on a Stbd Engine harness interface.

.

[2850Bounty]

Dadrock, just a note for you that I had forgotten to include earlier.

Where I show New Accessory Circuits with 2 options, the existing hull harness connection may limit us to the harness's load capability..... whereas the Direct Common connection allows us to run a new/fresh dedicated circuit forward (both Neg and Pos circuits).

The second scenario would be independent of the hull harness giving us redundancy.

Accessories may include GPS, VHF, DS, FF, etc..... all no longer being powered via the OEM hull harness.

Food for thought!

.