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2452 Classic Cruiser - told that inverter/charger is ok, batts are bad - replace??-gctid405184

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    2452 Classic Cruiser - told that inverter/charger is ok, batts are bad - replace??-gctid405184

    2003 2452 Express Classic Cruiser - was told that the "house batts" (2 - 90amphr West Marine Deep cycle 90's, group 27) are shot but inverter (Xantrex 1800) is ok (don't like modified sine wave though for digital stuff, IMO). I know I need to pull batts and bring home to charge and check them out (easier that way) but I'm thinking of maybe redoing the system since I don't like it the way that it is right now: would like to incorporate solar panels (I have a hardtop model) and maybe a wind generator but I'm also looking at some of the newer inverter/generators (Honda and others) that could charge batts while cruising to location (or even "while at location") [Ok to put in engine space but exhaust must be vented outside?] . . . . . guess there's just too many questions to type in at one setting . . . . . . imagine one of you DIYers has looked into this . . . thought I'd cut my losses

    P.S: where'd you put the system . . . mine is under co-pilot's seat and hard to get to if you want to check things out . . . also have new Xantrex system control panel that the book says is NOT for my system . . . any takers?

    Appreciate the help . . . still reading everybody's posts . . . . that takes a while
    1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - for sale - Dredge Harbor, NJ
    Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
    WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
    James H. Stradling

    #2
    DadRock, by keeping your MBSS switch in the 'both' position, your batteries will charge while underway. On shore power, as long as the panel switch in the cabin is in the charger 'on' position, both house and starter batteries will charge no matter where the MBSS switch is. When on shore power, I keep my MBSS in the off position at home on the trailer but leave it in 'both' all the time when at the dock. I have a Blue Sea battery ACR system that uses both house and starter batteries for the house until the starter drops to about 11.8v or so... (I forget when it drops off) but allows enough juice to start the engine. My system has two house batteries and one starter battery...

    My inverter is under the pax seat as well. My cabin panel is set up to take advantage of all batteries and has an inverter power position that I use when on the hook and want to use the microwave or other 110v items... Photos below:

    MBSS switch:



    Inverter under pax seat:



    Cabin electrical panel:


    Doug ;}
    MMSI: 338068776
    "Go Aweigh to" Photos < click on red letters... 2001 Bayliner 2452 w/6.2 HO (paid for)


    sigpic

    Comment


      #3
      the pax seat like you said, Doug. I like that vertical mounting of the inverter/charger . . . nice idea . . . guess the screws go all the way through to the back side though, huh? Your picture looks just like my setup under the helm for the two started batts - so they both charge if set to "Both" after you're underway? . . more bad info from a different "know-it-all" . . . will it also help charge the house batts on the other side or do they need to be set to "Both" also . . . or will they even be charged while underway . . . being a different system and all.Thanks for the picts, that helps a lot.forgot to ask - my panel doesn't look the same as everybody else's panel for the 2452 . . . . hmmm, will try to add photo . . .

      [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/708935=30189-Boat-electrical-120V-panel-.jpg[/img]
      1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - for sale - Dredge Harbor, NJ
      Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
      WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
      James H. Stradling

      Comment


        #4
        When I was researching generators I found that most of the manufacturers of portable units said DO NOT add exhaust extensions to the generator. However, for the life of me I can't see why not. Just a heads up in your search for a generator.

        Comment


          #5
          Dadrock33 wrote:
          the pax seat like you said, Doug. I like that vertical mounting of the inverter/charger . . . nice idea . . . guess the screws go all the way through to the back side though, huh? Your picture looks just like my setup under the helm for the two started batts - so they both charge if set to "Both" after you're underway? . . more bad info from a different "know-it-all" . . . will it also help charge the house batts on the other side or do they need to be set to "Both" also . . . or will they even be charged while underway . . . being a different system and all.Thanks for the picts, that helps a lot.forgot to ask - my panel doesn't look the same as everybody else's panel for the 2452 . . . . hmmm, will try to add photo . . .

          http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/....jpg&#91;/img]
          You will have to track the power lines from the other MBSS to see where they go... It really does not make sense to have that kind of set up???The inverter is on plywood that is glued to the back of the pax seat and the other side has a jump seat with four screws in it to hold the seat on the back side... here is a photo of the back side of the pax seat. works well and kills two birds with one stone. Also, I installed fisherman's loops on the bow and the admiral made a web belt to hold my EU2000i on the bow when underway. I run a 9-10 foot power line to the shore power outlet on the pax side and can run 110v on the boat while at anchor.Wrong side but you get the idea...Fishermans loops:genny on the bow:Been running the genny on the bow now for several years. Rides well in big seas (10-12 ft has been the biggest so far)...
          Doug ;}
          MMSI: 338068776
          "Go Aweigh to" Photos < click on red letters... 2001 Bayliner 2452 w/6.2 HO (paid for)


          sigpic

          Comment


            #6
            TedB_BC wrote:
            When I was researching generators I found that most of the manufacturers of portable units said DO NOT add exhaust extensions to the generator. However, for the life of me I can't see why not. Just a heads up in your search for a generator.
            These tiny little engines are designed right down to the last nut and bolt.

            The exhaust is designed to work right out of the box as-is, and if you were to alter this, you'll end up changing the entire balance of the engine.

            If you want an engine bay mounted and wet exhaust generator, you'll need to purchase a Marine Generator.

            Dadrock33 wrote:
            2003 2452 Express Classic Cruiser - was told that the "house batts" (2 - 90amphr West Marine Deep cycle 90's, group 27) are shot but inverter (Xantrex 1800) is ok (don't like modified sine wave though for digital stuff, IMO). I know I need to pull batts and bring home to charge and check them out (easier that way) but I'm thinking of maybe redoing the system since I don't like it the way that it is right now: would like to incorporate solar panels (I have a hardtop model) and maybe a wind generator but I'm also looking at some of the newer inverter/generators (Honda and others) that could charge batts while cruising to location (or even "while at location")

            1.... [COLOR]"#FF0000" wrote:
            [Ok to put in engine space but exhaust must be vented outside?] [/COLOR]. . . .

            1.... Nope! Not even a good idea to store the generator in an engine bay, let alone exhaust it and/or operate it from there.

            The switch that I see in your image, is a source selector for selecting between Inverter and S/P a/c current.

            Somewhere you'll have an MBSS for your 12 VDC power.

            See posts #6 and #14 (response #1) http://"http://www.baylinerownersclu.../> <b>here</b> regarding MBSS selection during alternator charging while under way.
            Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
            2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
            Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
            Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
            Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

            Comment


              #7
              figured on the response to the generator in the engine compartment . . . that was my gut feeling too

              However, let's take a look at what I do have cause if I'm reading you guys right, I've got some extra stuff that doesn't (or shouldn't) be working or is at the least a lot of excess:

              1) One MBSS switch under the helm seat which I think allows you to start with either the starter batts (#1) or the house batts (#2) or, of course, both and therefore will also allow charging by the motor alternator while it is running (but not on BOTH, either #1 or #2) - I've just read that I was wrong on the BOTH setting not allowing both banks to charge via the engine alternator - my bad

              2) Another Perko MBSS switch that is under the pax seat and is connected to the house batts and the Xantrex 1800 inverter and also has a #1, both, and a #2 on it but I'm not sure what or why all that is down there (other than to provide 110VAC power from the house batts in the absence of SP) and what the different switch settings mean.

              3) Then there's the switch that you mentioned Rick which I'm taking to mean that I can get my 110VAC power from the house batts through the inverter or I can get it from SP - almost like one of the Perkos only on the main 110V panel.

              4) Last, but not least - there is a charger bolted to the gunwale wall just above the engine starter batts (which are flooded types) that doesn't seem to do anything unless maybe it's there to charge those batts if I am plugged into SP (kind of like a separate charger since the house batts would be charged by the Xantrex inverter/charger . . . . . .

              phew . . . . . . . so how far away is Oregon anyway? Methinks that maybe I need an expert to look at all this.
              1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - for sale - Dredge Harbor, NJ
              Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
              WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
              James H. Stradling

              Comment


                #8
                Dadrock33 wrote:
                don't like modified sine wave though for digital stuff, IMO
                Nearly all "digital electronics" could care less about their sine wave... especially things like televisions and computers.

                Comment


                  #9
                  sorry - duplicated
                  1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - for sale - Dredge Harbor, NJ
                  Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
                  WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
                  James H. Stradling

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Dadrock33 wrote:
                    cause if I'm reading you guys right, I've got some extra stuff that doesn't (or shouldn't) be working or is at the least a lot of excess:

                    1) One MBSS switch under the helm seat which I think allows you to start with either the starter batts (#1) or the house batts (#2) or, of course, both and therefore will also allow charging by the motor alternator while it is running (but not on BOTH, either #1 or #2)

                    2) Another Perko MBSS switch that is under the pax seat and is connected to the house batts and the Xantrex 1800 inverter and also has a #1, both, and a #2 on it but I'm not sure what or why all that is down there (other than to provide 110VAC power from the house batts in the absence of SP) and what the different switch settings mean.

                    3) Then there's the switch that you mentioned Rick which I'm taking to mean that I can get my 110VAC power from the house batts through the inverter or I can get it from SP - almost like one of the Perkos only on the main 110V panel.

                    4/4a) Last, but not least - there is a charger bolted to the gunwale wall just above the engine starter batts (which are flooded types) that doesn't seem to do anything unless maybe it's there to charge those batts if I am plugged into SP (kind of like a separate charger since the house batts would be charged by the Xantrex inverter/charger . . . . . .

                    5) so how far away is Oregon anyway? Methinks that maybe I need an expert to look at all this.
                    1) Sounds somewhat correct, but a hand drawn schematic of this would certainly be helpful.

                    2) OK, in order to address this one, you need to see #4a below.

                    If this is a Xantrex Inv/Carger, there should NOT be any MBSS involvement.

                    If there is an involvement (as to seperate two HLBB's, for example), you're defeating the purpose of taking advantage of the most Amp Hour capacity that you can.

                    More on that later if interested.

                    3) That is your Rotary Selector switch that let's you select between Inverter/Shore Power for your breaker panel's a/c current source.

                    4) Follow the charger leads and note where they connect.

                    4a) A Xantrex inverter/charger uses the heavy Inverter circuit for the HLBB charging as well.

                    I don't believe that Xantrex wants an MBSS in this cable run.

                    5) From where?
                    Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                    2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                    Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                    Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                    Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                    Comment


                      #11
                      BTW, Doug....., you've got one of my favorite MBSS's.

                      These are designed after the old school Cole-Hersee brand, Model M705 MBSS.

                      Huge contacts, make-before-break, good spring tension, and I believe that the rear cover is removeable like the M705 is.




                      Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                      2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                      Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                      Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                      Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Dadrock:
                        One MBSS switch under the helm seat which I think allows you to start with either the starter batts (#1) or the house batts (#2) or, of course, both and therefore will also allow charging by the motor alternator while it is running (but not on BOTH, either #1 or #2) - I've just read that I was wrong on the BOTH setting not allowing both banks to charge via the engine alternator - my bad
                        Just want to verify that you understand that when the MBSS is in both that the engine will charge both house and starter batts but Shore Power doesn't care where the MBSS switch is. The panel in your cabin should have a battery charger relay and that has to be ON to have shore power charge your batteries through the charger above your batteries. Mine is in the photo below and yours is probably similar... 3 phase smart charger

                        Note on off switch above battery. I can isolate battery power without removing the terminals on the batteries... comes in handy when working down in the engine bay... I have one switch for each battery and the switch on the transom actually powers the kicker power for starting etc. My kicker also charges the house and starter battery...



                        My battery monitor is 'old school' and I need to update it. It only indicates voltage:



                        It is capable of charging three batteries but I have the two house batts on one of those monitor switches in the above photo.
                        Doug ;}
                        MMSI: 338068776
                        "Go Aweigh to" Photos < click on red letters... 2001 Bayliner 2452 w/6.2 HO (paid for)


                        sigpic

                        Comment


                          #13
                          2850Bounty wrote:
                          1) Sounds somewhat correct, but a hand drawn schematic of this would certainly be helpful.

                          2) OK, in order to address this one, you need to see #4a below.

                          If this is a Xantrex Inv/Carger, there should NOT be any MBSS involvement.

                          If there is an involvement (as to seperate two HLBB's, for example), you're defeating the purpose of taking advantage of the most Amp Hour capacity that you can.

                          More on that later if interested.

                          3) That is your Rotary Selector switch that let's you select between Inverter/Shore Power for your breaker panel's a/c current source.

                          4) Follow the charger leads and note where they connect.

                          4a) A Xantrex inverter/charger uses the heavy Inverter circuit for the HLBB charging as well.

                          I don't believe that Xantrex wants an MBSS in this cable run.

                          5) From where?
                          1>> I'm planning on taking a few hours Monday and hand drawing that necessary schematic . . . I've got too much stuff and can't seem to "easily" find out where it goes - will have to just "dive" into it and write it down.

                          2>> definitely "more on that later" . . . sincerely interested, if for no other reason that some good ole' education and lernin' is always good for the soul . . . . . gotta admit . . . . I love this stuff

                          3>> ok, got that one

                          4>> yep, will do that on Monday

                          5>> York, PA . . . . boat out of Long Level Marina on Lake Clarke (dammed up portion of the Susquehanna River) but hope to tow and travel to ocean and other lakes fairly soon . . . . once I figure this stuff out
                          1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - for sale - Dredge Harbor, NJ
                          Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
                          WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
                          James H. Stradling

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Dadrock33 wrote:
                            1>> I'm planning on taking a few hours Monday and hand drawing that necessary schematic . . . I've got too much stuff and can't seem to "easily" find out where it goes - will have to just "dive" into it and write it down.
                            Yep, sometimes that's all we can do, just dive in.

                            I've looked at these Rat's Nests before with the intent of cleaning things up. Sometimes it's just easier to pull most of it out or your way, so that you're not fighting it.

                            Dadrock, here are a few icons that you can use and move around, if it would help you make your schematic.

                            I don't have a sophisticated program for this, I just use MS Paint program. MS Paint will allow me to make a rather crude, but workable schematic. (there are some decent MSP tools if you know what to look for)

                            You could certainly do better that I if you had a good program.

                            Attached files http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/....jpg&#91;/img]
                            Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                            2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                            Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                            Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                            Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                            Comment


                              #15
                              at the end of the tunnel isn't an oncoming train!! . . . . not yet, anyway . . . .Ok, the MBSS under the helm seat concerns itself only with the two lead acid (flooded) batteries and yes, I have the same Flyback 15-3 charger (more on that later). That much I can see and trace wires.The house batts and Xantrex inverter/charger are essentially linked to SP2 (had to pull panel, tilt it down and search with a flashlight) . . . and there is NO transfer switch (??) . . . have one marked "parallel" but there is a plastic piece (see earlier panel photo) that blocks it from being thrown to the "on" position. I had the shore power plugged into SP1 today and tried to charge the house batteries but couldn't seem to get anything on the inverter to work. None of the lights and the "select" switch seemed to work the way the book said it should. Finally traced the wires to the back of the panel and found them going to SP2 - not SP1 (all this was on a 120V extension cord from the marina owner's house) . . . . that only took about 2 hrs to come to that conclusion so the schematic is going to have to wait another day . . . . but at least I have that issue identified. Will charge house batts tomorrow and see how they hold up. Still have to identify the "comings and goings" from the Perko MBSS that is under the pax seat though . . . . not happy yet with my search.Back to the Flyback 15-3 charger . . . I downloaded the manual and in the reading, I read where all three "sensing wires that go to the positive posts" need to be jumpered if there is only one battery or one jumper if there are only two batteries that would be charged (so that the unit "thinks" it has three different batteries(?)) . . . . hey, whatever the book says . . . . I threw the battery charger switch on the panel when I was connected to SP1 and the red light came on but the needle on the ammeter(?) didn't move . . . didn't have my tester with me at the time (loaned it to a neighbor this morning) but will check voltage tomorrow. Found a yellow wire lying behind one of the batteries that wasn't connected to anything and the two orange wires go back up the bottom of the charger . . . . . thinking I have to jump that yellow wire to one of the other positive posts (relative to the book's instructions)Here is the panel again"

                              [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/709784=30340-Boat-electrical-120V-panel-.jpg[/img]and here is the charger (you can see the three wires coming off of the bottom [two orange and one yellow] but the yellow isn't attached):

                              [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/709784=30346-Flyback-charger-edit.jpg[/img]I'll bet Sinbad didn't have this much fun on his journey . . . . . or did he? Thanking all of you for your help.BEGINNING OF UPDATE - NEXT DAY (Tuesday, 7AUG12)Things just couldn't get worse [or so "they" say] but about that time . . . . . it will!!Hooked up my 120V extension cord to SP2, flipped it on and then flipped the "accessory" switch so that the Xantrex could charge the house batts whilst I was playing with the Flyback charger for the starting batts . . . . ah yes, all was going well, house batts charging and NOW . . . to the Flyback and the starter battsPoint to remember: next time, think and get some additional input before attempting to "redo & invent the wheel" . . . . . yeah, think most of you have been down this road before . . . . y'know . . the road to [where was that?] is paved with good intentions . . . . thought I'd check the wires from the charger to the battery first, sho nuff', two of them were loose, hmmm, can't get to'em [240 lbs, 6', ice hockey player, but mostly cause in one day, I'll be 63] . . . ok, I can do this, remove one battery and then get at it . . nope, head doesn't turn that way, can't see through the glasses (too close, can't tilt head back far enough - bifocals) . . ok, remove second battery and all the cables . . . . yep, finally . . . . dismount from wall, check and tighten all connections (if you read earlier, the yellow wire was the one that was going to negative but not marked - glad I checked first and DIDN'T hook it up to the positive terminal like I said I was going to do . . . . remounted Flyback charger to wall and THEN was when I should've gone home . .. . no, if I'm going to put all this back into place, I'm going to do it my way (I says to myself) . . . . "Self, do it the way you think it should be, clean it up" and so I will . . . I'll take a couple of picts for those that haven't stopped laughing and post them later, probably Thursday or Friday cause me & Jack are gonna argue here in a little . . . . . and so, the saga continues . . . .

                              I did find out that there was a heavy red wire (not the normal system "orange" wire going to the harness) coming off the back of the alternator that went straight to the positive input terminal of the Xantrex inverter/charger . . (??) but there was no ground or negative wire back to the system . . . . . I think I'm missing something here . . . . had to go home, sweated through and through . . . . need a tarp and some AC . . . . maybe a fan
                              1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - for sale - Dredge Harbor, NJ
                              Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
                              WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
                              James H. Stradling

                              Comment

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