Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Dual Pro Charging Systems charger with Blue Seas ACR

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

    #31
    Thanks for the insight, everyone. I can do one of two things to achieve the dual goals of having the alternator charge both banks when the engine is running and a charger charging both banks when on the trailer or, rarely, when I need a charge at a slip: remember I already have a Blue Seas ACR which provides for the alternator charging both banks when the engine is running.

    1. As Kevin says, I could just use one set of outputs connected to the starting battery and the ACR will take care of the logic of balancing the charge and preventing overcharging when the engine is not running.

    2. I could install a switch on the "ground wire" of the ACR to turn it off when the charger is being used but this gains me nothing, really. I might do it if I'm really looking for an afternoon project but flipping that switch is just another thing to remember.

    so I will do the first. In hindsight, a single output charger would have been the thing to get since the ACR is already there and I'm not willing to take it out and get a dual charger with ACR functionality. Too bad I didn't know of such a device 2 years ago when the ACR went in, but that's the way upgrades go.

    thanks everyone. Looks like several of us learned something on this thread.
    Bayliner 195 Bowrider 2013 4.3l 220hp MPI
    Alpha 1, Gen II
    2012 Toyota Highlander V6 4wd with tow package
    Albany, Ohio

    MMSI: 338234042


    Beware the men of measured merriment
    (Sinclair Lewis, Arrowsmith, paraphrased)

    Comment


      #32
      Originally posted by Douggy View Post

      You apparently "don't get it". You install an acr when you want your alternator to be capable of charging multiple battery banks. You could just use a MBSS but the "A" in ACR means "Auto" and "CR" means "Charge Relay" where the acr circuit detects the charge status of the main (start) battery bank under charge from the alternator and switches the alternator output to the 2nd (house) battery bank if the Main (start) battery bank is in the fully charged state.

      When your boat engine is on you don't want your AC battery charger on, no matter if it is a single , dual bank, acr installed or not.

      If you have a acr and you want to charge your batteries with a single bank battery charger then you can by connecting to one of the battery banks and it will charge that first battery and then the acr will switch to the other battery bank after the first battery bank has reached full charge state.

      My duel bank battery charger has a acr function module that is only active when the boat engine is on and the battery charger if off. This allows the engine alternator to first charge the main (start) battery bank first and then switches to the 2nd battery bank (house) once the main (start) battery is in the fully charged state.

      When I want to charge both batteries using the on-board dual bank charger, I first make sure the boat engine is off, then plug in (ac) the dual bank charger and it does it's job as a normal smart dual bank battery charger.
      Dont be Silly...

      firstly... I fully "get it"... and if people would take the time to do some history on why its called an ACR, and how it works best as designed, there would be less confusion and less people who THINK they know, but really dont.... its not hard to understand the concept of how and why it works, and HOW it should be installed to work the best, unless one one only believes the rumors that other people who dont know, tell them..... www.bluesea.com/articles/527 ....... (BTW, BlueSea has the trademark on the letters ACR in this order, when referring to combiner relays)

      it is designed as a COMBINER relay, and the word" charge" as been adopted because the combiner allows the charge to pass thru it to the combined bank... in itself, an ACR has no charging capabilities on its own, nor does it regulate when or how the charger works... it only "combines" to allow the chargers to charge BOTH BANKS AT ONCE (this is why a higher amp charger may be beneficial) and still keep the banks isolated from one another... BELIEVE IT OR NOT, your choice.

      secondly, it makes not a whit of difference if the shore power charger is on when the alternator is working, and/or if the solar charger is connected and working... NOT A BIT.... UNLESS the shore power charger was designed without an ability to "sense", in which case its NOT a smart charger. (even the "dumb" regulator in the alternator knows when to limit or stop the output of the alternator)
      when a "regulated" charging source(s) is connected in (no matter where it comes from) and sees the battery as full, it will regulate itself to do what needs to be done (float).... and when there is multiple charge sources attached, there will always be one that is more dominant that the others, so it will continue to charge the bank until it also sees the bank as full, and it will regulate itself to float...
      "dominant", as used here, only means a charger that is a bit slower to sense and so it will almost always be the one doing the charging when multiple charge sources are connected and active, as the faster sensing chargers will sense the voltage is high enough and will shut down...

      so there really is no need to switch about and change all your charging sources on a sunny day when you are plugged in at the dock and want to start the engine... its just not necessary, and no equipment damage or fires are going to happen either way...

      thirdly... the ACR in the system DOES NOT cause the charger to charge the first bank completely, BEFORE it will open and allow charge to go to the second bank...... when the acr sees a charge input, within a minute or two it combines to allow ALL the batteries in BOTH banks to charge as needed (and so, if the charger is capable of giving an "equalize" charge, it takes care of ALL the batteries at once)
      then, when the charging source is removed, the combiner will remain combined for an undetermined amount of time OR UNTIL it senses the slightest drop in voltage from either bank, in which case it disconnects immediately.. and stays disconnected until it sees a charge voltage again

      fourthly... if the charger/combiner "all in one unit" you have really works as you think you understand it to,, then it isnt taking care of your banks as well a dedicated combiner relay could...


      Like I said in an earlier reply, a person can do it however they want to on their own boat, and it doesnt even have to be ABYC compliant... as long as it works and doesnt cause safety issues, its perfectly fine... anyone/everyone sometimes chooses their word carelessly, without thought or mistakenly, but when one feels a need to put down or criticize a contributing poster, then they need to rethink their approach and go back to school and get up to speed on what they THINK they are talking about... or at the very least, ASK for clarification on the subject . I have offered nothing except facts.. if anyone wants to check them for their accuracy, they will see any advice I may have offered could save them a step or two in maintaining their system, and at the very least, take any "thought" out of it (switching the switches, plugging and unplugging, or any other worry or wonder) after the acr is installed as it was intended by design. .. but I dont expect anyone to do anything they dont want to, no matter if they are right or wrong.... as long as we still have our american freedom, we have choices.
      Wisdom is nothing more than an acute awareness of how much we DONT know, combinded with a lot of experience.....


      NU LIBERTE'
      Salem, OR

      1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
      5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
      N2K equipped throughout..
      2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
      2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
      '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
      Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

      Comment


        #33
        Centerline2,

        mind commenting on my last post with your opinion? Would like to know. I do understand that my ACR either combines or not...there is no way given the wiring scheme to cut out the battery with the charger or alternator leads.

        maybe you and Douggy should PM each other...
        Bayliner 195 Bowrider 2013 4.3l 220hp MPI
        Alpha 1, Gen II
        2012 Toyota Highlander V6 4wd with tow package
        Albany, Ohio

        MMSI: 338234042


        Beware the men of measured merriment
        (Sinclair Lewis, Arrowsmith, paraphrased)

        Comment


          #34
          Originally posted by Nickdixon View Post
          Centerline2,

          mind commenting on my last post with your opinion? Would like to know. I do understand that my ACR either combines or not...there is no way given the wiring scheme to cut out the battery with the charger or alternator leads..
          according to how I read your previous post, it would seem you understand perfectly what should be done...

          there is no need for a switch in the ground wire with what you have.... I dont know if you have a single or dual output charger but when using an acr, it doesnt matter. connect 1 or both output leads to the same battery, and if at all possible the output leads should be connected to the same bank that the alternator output is connected to.... AND its recommended that all charge sources connect to the house bank, as its the bank that usually needs the most charge put in it, the most often. the start battery very seldom needs more than just a few amps put back in it.

          when the engine is running, the acr combines to charge all the batteries evenly.... when the engine is off and shorepower is connected and the shorepower charger is on and working, the acr does the same thing.....
          if the shore power is connected AND the engine is running, the dominant charger will take over while the less dominant charger sees a good charge in the system (as the dominant charger is continuing to supply its high charge current) and so the less dominant charger will shut down thinking the system is topped off.... if the dominant charger happens to be the alternator when the engine is running, and the engine gets shut off, it will not take but a few seconds and the shorepower charger will sense that the voltage has suddenly dropped and is low, and will again continue its charging.. when it again senses the banks are full, the charger will return to float mode.

          two charge sources connected on to the same battery is not new, not wrong, not abnormal, and not unsafe... a lot of twin engine boats have an alternator on both engines, wired into the system to give redundancy and dependability of the system... but there are other ways they get connected in to the system also.... one can never assume how they are wired in.
          Last edited by Centerline2; 02-04-2018, 11:26 AM. Reason: punctuation.


          NU LIBERTE'
          Salem, OR

          1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
          5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
          N2K equipped throughout..
          2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
          2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
          '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
          Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

          Comment


            #35
            Douggy, please read my post #27 carefully. Paraphrasing, I stated that "if indeed this is a so-called multi-output charger with a built-in ACR (VSR) such that it can sense charging by an external source (e.g. alternator) on either side and combine the two outputs together" then, from an electrical stand-point it is same as using an external ACR with a single output charger. However, I went on to state that, again paraphrasing, "if only the VSR part has failed, you still need to send the entire charger for repair". Furthermore, using an external ACR gives us the ability to set the ACR to combine MANUALLY or in AUTO mode, or to force-it to remain OFF even if one side may be charging. For example, if you develop a problem with one battery you may prefer to NOT combine the two batteries as that may damage the other battery as well. The OFF mode also allows us to safely/securely separate the two batteries so work can be performed on one, without worrying that the ACR may suddenly go into the combine mode with potential sparks and/or other unwanted effects.

            I finally stated, "each to his own", and I repeat it here.

            Safe boating,
            Retired, computer expert / executive
            Bayliner 285 Cruiser / Mercruiser QSD 4.2L 320 HP Diesel
            Live in the Bay Area, CA, USA, boat in Turkey
            D-Marin @ Turgutreis in Bodrum/Turkey
            bdervisoglu8@gmail.com
            bulent@pacbell.net

            Comment


              #36
              Hey Dennis - this article was the one I was looking for and no, it doesn't exactly answer your questions but it does get pretty close . . . . at least, a lot closer than what some opinions might think. It's a bit long on the read but I really like the information and think it's spot "ON". Here it is: https://marinehowto.com/installing-a...ttery-charger/ A lot of the info he quotes is pretty carefully researched (I believe) and come from the manufacturers info and suggestions. Need to read it thoroughly and then you can interpret it to your specific issues. Take care.

              I would hope that a lot of people would read this article. The results could be very beneficial.
              1998 Avanti 3685 - "Dad's Dream" w 454 Mercs - just a rockin' an'a rollin'
              Former - "Home Aweigh" 2003 - 2452 Bayliner Cierra Classic Hardtop Cruiser
              WQQM835 MMSI: 338147209
              James H. Stradling

              Comment


                #37
                Originally posted by Dadrock33 View Post
                this article was the one I was looking for and think it's spot "ON". Here it is: https://marinehowto.com/installing-a...ttery-charger/ A lot of the info is carefully researched and come from the manufacturers info and suggestions.

                I would hope that a lot of people would read this article. The results could be very beneficial.
                Thanks for posting the link Dadrock.
                this is good information for everyone who cares about their batteries and wants to understand how to charge them properly to get the most potential out of them...



                NU LIBERTE'
                Salem, OR

                1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
                5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
                N2K equipped throughout..
                2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
                2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
                '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
                Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

                Comment


                  #38
                  Finally installed the dual charger. Just didn't consider the ACR, since thinking through its published logic, seems it would make no difference. One charger output to one battery, another to the other. Rethinking the Blue Seas switch too since my actual experience has been that if one of the batteries will not start the engine, two won't either. I realize this is contrary to all of our jumpstarting experience, but that's what I've experienced. Thoughts welcome, as always. I'm sure there are subtleties of which I am unaware.
                  Bayliner 195 Bowrider 2013 4.3l 220hp MPI
                  Alpha 1, Gen II
                  2012 Toyota Highlander V6 4wd with tow package
                  Albany, Ohio

                  MMSI: 338234042


                  Beware the men of measured merriment
                  (Sinclair Lewis, Arrowsmith, paraphrased)

                  Comment


                    #39
                    The acr is designed so that WITHOUT needing to remember to throw switches, you can have 2 battery banks charging ALL the time from either the engine, shore power or solar, yet kept completely isolated from either bank being able to draw the other one down...

                    a multi-leg/output shore power charger can do this ONLY when plugged into shore power... but it wont allow the engine to work this way...or a solar panel

                    In a properly installed 2 bank.system, with the acr installed, it obsoletes the 1-2-off combine switch, and in its place is an on-off-combine switch that only needs to be turned on and off for normal.use, as it switches BOTH banks at the same.time, while keeping them ISOLATED from each other...

                    in this way, either bank can go dead and not affect the orher one at all...which in almost every case its the house bank that goes dead, and then the start battery is still fully chaged and ready to start the engine to recharge the dead house bank....

                    the house bank is usually bigger than the start bank, and so if for some reason the start battery should become damaged and go dead, switching to combine mode you can still start the engine...

                    one thing to consider, when you say In your experiance, "when one battery goes dead and wont start the engine, two wont either", the usual reason for this is the second battey is wired to power the house, and the leads from it are not heavy enough to carry the amps required for the starter all the way to the switch and back to the starter...
                    usually this problem can be worked around by combining the batteries and waiting 10-20 minutes for some of the amps to trickle over into the dead battery, so you dont have to pull so many in the instant you turn the ignition to statrt... which is the same practice necessary when using a jump-pak connected to the dead vehicles cigarette lighter.. yes, it will do it but its not instant power transfer.

                    the nbue sea add-a-battery kit is made to install on a multiple bank.system, and forget it and let it do its magic...


                    NU LIBERTE'
                    Salem, OR

                    1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
                    5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
                    N2K equipped throughout..
                    2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
                    2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
                    '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
                    Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

                    Comment


                      #40
                      Originally posted by Nickdixon View Post
                      Rethinking the Blue Seas switch too since my actual experience has been that if one of the batteries will not start the engine, two won't either. I realize this is contrary to all of our jumpstarting experience, but that's what I've experienced. Thoughts welcome, as always. I'm sure there are subtleties of which I am unaware.
                      You need to figure out why this is happening.

                      If you normally run with the MBSS set to Combine, then it's using both battery banks as one big battery. And since it's one big battery, if you run it down, both banks will run down together, and you won't be able to start your engine.

                      If you normally run with the MBSS set to 1 (or 2), then you're using just that one battery bank. But that's also the only battery bank being charged by the alternator. The other battery is held purely as a reserve, not doing anything unless you manually switch it to 2 (or 1) or Combine. So you've got some parasitic drain on the unused battery which is killing its charge so it can't act as a backup should the battery in use get too low.

                      The issue the ACR is supposed to solve is: You'd like to use only one battery, but you want the alternator to charge both batteries. With a regular MBSS, it's use/charge either one, or both. You cannot use one while charging both. The ACR lets you use one battery (for house electronics), while charging both.

                      The catch is that the ACR detects the shore power charger as if it were incoming charge from the alternator. When it senses the first battery bank is receiving 14V (or whatever threshold it uses to determine charging is in progress), it connects the two battery banks so both receive 14V. This is not what you want if you've got a shore power charger with dual battery outputs. These chargers are much more sophisticated than an alternator and will gradually ramp up voltage as the battery gains charge to "top off" the battery with maximum charge. It cannot do this if two battery banks at different voltages (charge levels) are connected, which is what the ACR will try to do.

                      The instructions I linked to for an ACR disconnect switch will stop the ACR from automatically combining both battery banks when you're using a shore power charger. The charger then always sees two independent battery banks, and is able to charge them correctly independently of each other.

                      The wiring for house and starter is a bit different as well. With a MBSS, the battery bank you select (1, 2, or both) is used for both starting and to run house electronics. While the batteries are isolated in the 1 or 2 setting, they're isolated in that only one battery is doing anything. The other battery is unused. This means if you experience voltage sag while starting the engine, the sag will hit all your house electronics, potentially causing some of them to turn off. Because the starter and house electronics are always running off the same battery(ies).

                      With the ACR, the starter is hooked up to one battery, the house electronics to the other. So the two are always isolated from each other, unless you use the Combine setting. With an ACR, the Combine setting is only intended to be used in emergencies (unlike a MBSS where many people operate with it set to both, to assure the alternator will charge both). In an emergency if the starter battery is low enough that it's unable to crank the engine, you can combine the house battery with the starter battery to hopefully provide enough power to crank your engine. So except for these emergencies and while being charged, your starter and house batteries will be independent of each other and experience different amounts of use. So it should be exceedingly rare for both to be low enough at the same time that you can't start the engine. Either the starter battery will go low first, meaning the house battery has enough charge to crank the engine. Or the house battery will go low first, which you'll realize (due to failing electronics) and decide to head home while the starter battery still has enough charge to crank the engine. So the Blue Seas ACR + switch system is specifically designed to prevent the very situation you're giving as a reason for not getting the Blue Seas ACR + switch.
                      1994 2556, 350 MAG MPI Horizon, Bravo 2

                      Comment


                        #41
                        Originally posted by Solandri View Post
                        You need to figure out why this is happening.

                        .

                        The issue the ACR is supposed to solve is: You'd like to use only one battery, but you want the alternator to charge both batteries. With a regular MBSS, it's use/charge either one, or both. You cannot use one while charging both. The ACR lets you use one battery (for house electronics), while charging both.

                        The catch is that the ACR detects the shore power charger as if it were incoming charge from the alternator. When it senses the first battery bank is receiving 14V (or whatever threshold it uses to determine charging is in progress), it connects the two battery banks so both receive 14V. This is not what you want if you've got a shore power charger with dual battery outputs..
                        The simple fix is to combine BOTH shore power charger leads to the SAME bank... when using an acr, it is recommend that ALL charging sources connect at the same point in tue system.... a shore power charger, a solar charger and an alternator will NOT damage one another if they are all on at the same time.... they are automatic, and when one sees a more dominant charge source, it will shut down and wait until its needed.


                        NU LIBERTE'
                        Salem, OR

                        1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
                        5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
                        N2K equipped throughout..
                        2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
                        2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
                        '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
                        Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Thanks for the info, everyone. Looks like I will need to install the new Blue Seas switch and connect both charger lead sets to the starting battery. The point about giving the low battery time to charge a bit before the COMBINE function will work is convincing...what kept me from doing the new switch originally was the uncertainty about the logic inside the charger. The docs don't mention that kind of parallel arrangement. The charger is a recreational series Dual Pro Charger.
                          Bayliner 195 Bowrider 2013 4.3l 220hp MPI
                          Alpha 1, Gen II
                          2012 Toyota Highlander V6 4wd with tow package
                          Albany, Ohio

                          MMSI: 338234042


                          Beware the men of measured merriment
                          (Sinclair Lewis, Arrowsmith, paraphrased)

                          Comment


                            #43
                            Originally posted by Nickdixon View Post
                            Thanks for the info, everyone. The charger is a recreational series Dual Pro Charger.
                            it will work great with the acr set up...


                            NU LIBERTE'
                            Salem, OR

                            1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
                            5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
                            N2K equipped throughout..
                            2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
                            2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
                            '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
                            Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

                            Comment


                              #44
                              The Blue Seas switch should go in tomorrow, but I've been using the charger (with the current MBSS off) with the boat in the driveway, with the dual charging leads on separate batteries. Working like a charm. Since the charger will always be disconnected when underway, I'm going to leave those connections. Underway, I will have the standard arrangement when the alternator is the charging source and the ACR will operate as if the dual charger was not there. Anyway, there seems to be no need to disable the ACR when the charger is operating.
                              Bayliner 195 Bowrider 2013 4.3l 220hp MPI
                              Alpha 1, Gen II
                              2012 Toyota Highlander V6 4wd with tow package
                              Albany, Ohio

                              MMSI: 338234042


                              Beware the men of measured merriment
                              (Sinclair Lewis, Arrowsmith, paraphrased)

                              Comment


                                #45


                                I commented early in this discussion. I have been running my system for a long time

                                But having three batteries sets and a three bank charger and having spent quite a bit of a coin to set the system up I want that smart three bank charger to properly charge each set of batteries as they require. My house bank a set of four 6 volt Golf cart batteries that will need to charge differently than the high-capacity starting batteries that I have on board. The house bank at times is far more discharged and requires far more charging

                                So why would I simply tie everything together and charge it all the same when my system allows me to charge each bank as is required by that bank.

                                That’s why I shut off the ACRs when I walk away from the boat and let the smart charger charge each bank separately as needed.
                                Jim McNeely
                                New Hope a 2004 Bayliner 305 Sunbridge Express Cruiser
                                Twin 5.7s with Bravo2 drives
                                Brighton, Michigan USA
                                MMSI # 367393410

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X