Base Pan interchangeability and removal-gctid400520

[Guest]

Called home the other day to bad boat news.....all the oil leaked out of my engine while it's been sitting a couple of weeks. My father and brother inspected and found a hole due to corrosion on my base pan....which is the only corrosion on my engine thankfully. Guess it was poor quality and a bit of water in the bilge accelerated the rusting process.

2 questions so I can prepare accordingly:

1. Can I buy an automotive base pan and gasket to replace the old one on my VP AQ 260 (5.7 Chev) or do I need to order OEM or other marine part (ie. Sierra)??

2. In an '86 2556 flybridge, can the basepan be changed without lifting the engine? Pretty sure I can get all the bolts out but not sure I can fit the pan between the engine and stringer.

Any advice appreciated. Only have 5 weeks home to enjoy my boat and want to get her operational as fast as possible!!

[2850Bounty]

This will be a very standard automotive oil pan, baring that you find the correct year, and with some, the correct dip stick orientation.

Changing the oil pan while the engine is still installed ????? ..... quite a job, IMO, and I doubt that you could R&R it without at least lifting the engine some.

This is your prime oportunity to pull the engine (disconnect at the F/C), fix a few other things, clean up your engine bay, look things over, AND.................... being the NAZI that I am..............

Replace your PDS bearings!

These are actually very easy engines to remove.

.

[Guest]

quick fix...clean and sand good....JB weld the hole and pan, till you have more time.

[QUOTE=tedstrophy;

Any advice appreciated. Only have 5 weeks home to enjoy my boat and want to get her operational as fast as possible!![/QUOTE]

[2850Bounty]

I just called two experts, and asked about the JB Weld repair.

They said that JB would work, but no better than this repair.



Get your parts all lined out, and take a weekend and set it aside for this.

If all goes well, you can have it done by Sunday afternoon.

.

[Guest]

Thanks a lot Rick.....automotive oil pan it is!! I'll be giving it a few extra coats of paint in hopes to slow down the rusting process! I'll have a look at it when I get home and if I think I can get the pan off without pulling the engine I will do it and post pics with helpful hints on how to do it.

However, I do anticipate sizing it up and saying screw it....and pulling the engine to do PDS bearings while I am at it. I was gonna do it over the winter anyway, just as well to tear into it now! I have all the seals for the PDS job already, and the pan should be easy to find local. All I'll need then is the actualy bearings which I am sure the local bearing shop could match them up for me with Koyo or Timken bearings.

As for the JB weld idea.....thanks anyway. I would try it to get me home but thats it. Where I live, the weather is usually less than ideal to say the least and I usually have the bay to myself when I am out. This means help is usually hours away! I don't want to take chances like that around here....especially with passengers onboard.

[Gsherwood]

OK, I'll bite. What are PDS bearings?

[Guest]

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Gsherwood wrote:
OK, I'll bite. What are PDS bearings?

Uh oh.....now you've got it started! lol! Have a look at The Vault and see tons of info on it there! If you have an older Volvo Penta like a 275....you don't have a gimble bearing. Instead you have 2 bearings that carry a shaft....Primary Drive Shaft bearings. Commonly overlooked maintenance item. Rick is the self proclaimed PDS Bearings Nazi.....he is probably the reason most bearings get changed on this site lol!

Unfortunately the engine has to be moved/come out to replace the bearings and seals which is why it's often overlooked.

When I bought my boat I had little to no experience with inboard/outboard setups. All I knew was that many outdrives have gimble bearings. Knowing nothing about Volvo Penta older drives and the fact the don't have gimble bearings, I asked the seller if the gimble bearing was still good and he said yes! lol. Obviously he didn't know much about Volvo outdrives either! Haha.

[2850Bounty]

Gsherwood wrote:
OK, I'll bite. What are PDS bearings?

As Ted says, Primary Drive Shaft bearing(s).

The older Volvo Penta drives do not use a Gimbal Suspension system......, they use main suspension fork and pivot tube geometry.

The PDS is similar to the Gimbal system's upper unit "universal shaft", but with fixed geometry (no Gimbal affair).

The PDS is housed within the flywheel cover, and is supported by two bearings on this older model.



The early 4 and 6 cylinder engines, and later V-8's, use a single bearing PDS, and do not require engine removal for a bearing change!

In this image I show the steel B/W drive coupler, the PDS, where the double bearings would land, and where the seals would land.

All of this would be inside of the Volvo Penta flywheel cover.

Attached files http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/...sion.jpg[/img]

[Guest]

Got home today and had a look at my boat. I am thinking once I pull the starter, I can get the base pan off and fit it out between the engine and stringer. Gonna give it a try at least. The hardest part will be working with my head down in the engine compartment and trying to get the bolts out. Interested to see if this can be done now! I'll report my findings back lol!

I can still see me having to pull the engine if I get too fed up with it! Like was said before.....good chance to do the PDS bearings and clean/paint the engine compartment.

[dktool]

I doubt you will have the clearance to get the pan off with the engine in place due to the oil pump pick up tube / strainer.

[2850Bounty]

Not to mention the crankshaft main bearing caps and bolts, etc..... and if there's a windage tray, you can forget it.

You can pull one of these engines in about 1-1/2 to 2 hours first time doing it........ and even less if you have experience.

[Guest]

I just did this and no you can't do it with the engine in the boat. It is an automotive pan sorta of but not car pan it is heavy duty truck pan with a 5 quart capacity if it is the original . Car pans are 4 qt. plus 1 for the filter. Also 86 is the transition to one piece rear main seals so that makes a difference also. If yours has a full length windage tray it won't fit in a 4qt pan. So to plan ahead get the casting numbers off the block behind the left head and determine if it is a 1 or 2 piece rear main seal block. Also note which side the dip stick is on that changes also depending on year. Dorman and Spectre make pans that are reasonable but it can be challenging to determine which one you need as they don't list marine apps. And take Ricks advice REPLACE THE PDS BEARINGS. Thats why I had my engine out and replaced the pan as preventative maintenance. A lot of parts like oil pans are GM parts but it is difficult to determine what the applications where. A marine labelled pan is $300 and a truck pan is a $100. I would also consider powder coat or Rhino liner as a long term rust preventative.

[Guest]

So......found out today you certainly CANNOT remove the base pan while the engine is still installed! Lol. Managed to get all the bolts out and dropped the pan....but because of the windage tray I couldn't get it to fit between the block and stringer. Too bad....could've been a quick fix! What was worse was the weather is beautiful and the Cod fishery opened today and all the boats that went past me and the wharf asked me if I got any fish today. I just said...."Nope". Starting to disconnect all the components and strip the front of the engine on Tuesday. Hoping to pull it that evening. Will be doing the PDS bearings, and painting the bilge while I am at it. This is gonna be an engine pull and replacement in record time! Weather is too good to be wrenchin!

[Guest]

So I have everything on my AQ 260 disconnected and ready to lift the engine out in the morning. Going to paint the bilge, engine, and replace PDS bearings while I have it all out. Lifting it out with the excavator we happen to have at our place doing some dredging. Looks to be fairly staright forward.

1. Can I replace the PDS bearings and seals without removing the outdrive transmission? I just re-sealed my outdrive and replaced the bellows and would rather not have to buy new o-rings and open the drive all up again.

2. How far does the engine have to move forward to get the engine off the splines? I didn't remove the water pumps but wondering if I have to so I can move the engine forward far enough.

I'll let everyone know how things go after tomorrow!

[2850Bounty]

tedstrophy wrote:
1. Can I replace the PDS bearings and seals without removing the outdrive transmission? I just re-sealed my outdrive and replaced the bellows and would rather not have to buy new o-rings and open the drive all up again.

2. How far does the engine have to move forward to get the engine off the splines? I didn't remove the water pumps but wondering if I have to so I can move the engine forward far enough.

1. Short answer, NO.

You can do this by draining the oil, catching it in a clean container, and re-using it.

Cost is four new O-rings only............. 1 oil drain back tube, 1 large bearing retainer, 2 dip stick/drain plug O-rings.

2. Probaly no more than 1-1/2" until the Borg Warner coupler comes free from the PDS.

You may need to remove the sea water pump.

I think that you'll find several threads in the Vault on removing the PDS re; removing the seal, snap rings and long needle nose pliers, etc.

If you need bearings and seal numbers, post back.

After the PDS is reinstalled with the new bearings, be sure to pre-fill the grease cavity prior to installing your PDS seals.

Also, be sure to glue or stake the FWD seal in place as to prevent future grease from forcing it out of position.

Loose that FWD seal, and no future grease will make it through the AFT bearing. :thumb

The AFT seal is not really a water tight seal, it's more of a grease "hold back" affair, and should actually breach excessive grease pressure. If you have water in this area, you have larger problems!

I have been clipping a tiny portion of the AFT seal outer lip so that it will breach and not allow grease pressure to force the FWD seal out.

Your call on that! Just an FYI for you!

I put this together a while back to help explain how all of this sits within the flywheel cover, and how it couples to the transmission.

This relates to the double bearing PDS flywheel covers only. (the inline 4 and 6 cylinder engines, and later AQ series V-8's use a single bearing)

Attached files http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/...sion.jpg[/img]