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    454 rebuild questions-gctid821255

    Well today i finally pulled the trigger and got my 2nd boat!

    Picked up a lovely 93' formula 31pc.

    One engine needs rebuilt. I think they have around 1700 hours on them!

    Should i rebuild both while im in there? Any preemptive suggestions on the rebuild? Carbed 454 supposed to be 330 hp. Should I squeeze more performance out of them? My only care is fuel economy as this boat has plenty of power. Bravo 2 drives with showers.

    It also has closed cooling, new to me. What drawbacks and benifits with cc? Could/should i drop that? I boat fresh water lake michigan.
    1993 formula pc 31 twin 454 bravo 2
    1989 2655 cierra 5.7 omc cobra
    2014 "searay" tandom trailer

    Anchor bay clinton river
    Michigan

    #2
    Well, Congrats on the new to you boat

    I would rebuild both, personally. Remember to be loud and clear these are marine engines. I had a shop do a beautiful job rebuilding a head for me, it lasted until I put it on a plane. It was still warm when I presented it to them with two stuck valves. The tech was upset that something wasn't right with his work until I asked him how he ground the valves and guides. He ground them for longest wear, closest gap he could. Then I asked how he would grind them for an always loaded industrial engine. The light bulb went on. He reground everything and I had the head back the next noon.

    You may look into things like a roller cam, and having them balanced-blueprinted. These will help the rotating machinery to turn and not fight itself. Match the carb and intake to the new cam.

    As to closed cooling, it is to your advantage in the same way a thermostat is to your car engine, we'll sort of. It provides the ability to operate the engine at a higher, more consistent temperature You also have the benefit of "antifreeze/antiboil" coolant in the engine.
    P/C Pete
    Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
    1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
    Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
    MMSI 367770440

    Comment


      #3
      "businessgetmoney" post=821255 wrote:
      Well today i finally pulled the trigger and got my 2nd boat!

      Picked up a lovely 93' formula 31pc.

      One engine needs to be rebuilt. I think they have around 1700 hours on them!

      Should i rebuild both while im in there?

      [color]blue wrote:
      Yes![/color]

      Any preemptive suggestions on the rebuild?

      [color]blue wrote:
      Make sure that the machine shop understands the Marine application.[/color]

      Carbed 454 supposed to be 330 hp. Should I squeeze more performance out of them?

      [color]blue wrote:
      I would not.[/color]

      It also has closed cooling, new to me. What drawbacks and benifits with cc?

      [color]blue wrote:
      A Marine "Closed Cooling System" is similar to that of a car/truck radiator system, whereby Ethylene Glycol is used as the means to remove heat from the engine, and is then removed from the Ethylene Glycol by the air passing through the car/truck radiator.

      With a Closed Cooling System "heat exchanger", instead of "air" being used as the heat transferring media, the "heat exchanger" uses "seawater" as the heat transferring media.

      In other words...... you have two liquids transferring the engine produced heat...... E/G on the Engine cooling side of the tube bundle....... and Seawater on the opposite side of the tube bundle.

      The system is very efficient! [/color]

      Could/should i drop that? I boat fresh water lake michigan.

      [color]blue wrote:
      Fresh lake water or not..... NO.... keep the Closed Cooling Systems.[/color]
      [color]blue wrote:
      If you plan to replace the exhaust system, would you consider building a pair of 6.3L (aka 383 cu in) SBC Engines?

      When built correctly, they produce close to the same torque/hp as does the std 7.4L (aka 454 cu in).

      (see this thread) http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/in...58-383-stroker

      These weigh a bit less also.[/color]
      Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
      2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
      Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
      Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
      Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

      Comment


        #4
        Having to start with new blocks is probably a price range i dont want to touch.

        Im hoping the fact that one engine is fine and the other may have minir internal damage will save me thousands on the rebuild.

        I do like the weight savings of the 383 and understand they can put out same torque curves. The price is out of the question more than likely. Unless my risers are toast...

        Would the cc system adapt over to a sbc?

        I imagine the weight savings is rather significant, perhaps 500lbs off the stern no? That does alot more than more ponies
        1993 formula pc 31 twin 454 bravo 2
        1989 2655 cierra 5.7 omc cobra
        2014 "searay" tandom trailer

        Anchor bay clinton river
        Michigan

        Comment


          #5
          Fresh water boat don't need closed cooling.

          This boat always in fresh water ?
          Be good, be happy, for tomorrow is promised to no man !

          1994 2452, 5.0l, Alpha gen. 2 drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

          '86 / 19' Citation cuddy, Merc. 3.0L / 140 hp 86' , stringer drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

          Manalapan N.J

          Comment


            #6
            "Chief Alen" post=821378 wrote:
            Fresh water boat don't need closed cooling.
            Need????? Perhaps not....... but closed cooling is far superior, and in many respects!

            .
            Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
            2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
            Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
            Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
            Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

            Comment


              #7
              It started its life in florida. Hence the closed cooling. I would never of thought id buy a boat that has seen the salt but you wouldn't think this boat was ever in the salt.

              Only sign i saw was the steel mounting plate for the geny is pretty rusty. Am nervous about the exhaust. Perhaps the drives but they are bravo 2 and he just had them serviced with no reported issues
              1993 formula pc 31 twin 454 bravo 2
              1989 2655 cierra 5.7 omc cobra
              2014 "searay" tandom trailer

              Anchor bay clinton river
              Michigan

              Comment


                #8
                "2850Bounty" post=821390 wrote:
                "Chief Alen" post=821378 wrote:
                Fresh water boat don't need closed cooling.
                Need????? Perhaps not....... but closed cooling is far superior, and in many respects!

                .
                I respect Rick's opinion on a great many things, but on this, we disagree. Freshwater boats do not need closed cooling. The only benefit to it is winterization protection in the event of a cold snap (depending on the type of CC you use, granted).

                With the boat being in salt water and high hours, I would yank both engines and repower. The other engine being in good running condition means you can sell it to partially finance the new engines as-is.

                I would also replace ALL exhaust components as a matter of course. This was a really expensive boat and you are now doing a refit on it....spend some money and do it correctly.
                Matt Train
                BOC Site Team
                Chicagoland, IL

                Comment


                  #9
                  IMO You could rebuild (both) your current 454's. This is assuming they were closed cooled from the start meaning no salt water has ever seen the cooling jackets of the engine. You'll want to purchase new exhaust components if shes running a part closed system. Be sure that whoever rebuilds these engines knows they'll be going in a boat
                  Dave
                  Edmonds, WA
                  "THE FIX"
                  '93 2556
                  Carbureted 383 Vortec-Bravo II 2.0:1 18 1/4x19 P

                  The rebuild of my 2556 https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...76?view=thread
                  Misc. projects thread
                  https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...56-gctid789773

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Some people never saw 30-40 even 50 year old fresh water engines. They look pristine, so to what the other member posted about closed cooling we agree to disagree.

                    Ok this was FL boat used in saltwater, lest us not forget there are many, many fresh water boats in FL never kissed saltwater.

                    This my boat i just got, one engine went, the other is about to go also.

                    Brand new engines, using the boat only in fresh water, no closed cooling, i would keep the carbs go with a new diizzy, now is the time to ask the other member what dizzy he recommends ...

                    Michigan motorz too many hacks out there too trust your expensive refit to anyone. And they don't stand by their products like MM does.

                    MM carries diizzy's long blocks with new heads intake, starter and alt. Go old school without all the new fangled sensors and such, i'm searching now.
                    Be good, be happy, for tomorrow is promised to no man !

                    1994 2452, 5.0l, Alpha gen. 2 drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

                    '86 / 19' Citation cuddy, Merc. 3.0L / 140 hp 86' , stringer drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

                    Manalapan N.J

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Matt, please reread my previous post.

                      I did not say that it was mandatory or even necessary. What I did say, was that a close cooling system is far superior to running a raw water cooled engine, and in many respects!

                      Allen, you are not a mechanic, let alone a Marine mechanic! You may have not seen what I have seen over my years of experience. Believe it or not corrosion can occur from being in river or lake water whereby the PH balance is off!
                      Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                      2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                      Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                      Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                      Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Cast iron rusts even in freshwater. Unless you've looked inside the water passages of a raw water cooled engine vs an engine that has always had antifreeze you can't appreciate the difference.

                        If you drive a truck with cast iron axle housings take a good look at them; anywhere there isn't paint there will be a lot of surface rust. GM designed these engines to have a pressurized cooling sys with antifreeze. Raw water cooling is a cost driven compromise. Outboards are designed to be open cooled; inboards are not....
                        88 Four Winns 200 Horizon 4.3 OMC
                        98 Jeep Grand Cherokee 4.0/Selectrac
                        07 Jeep Grand Cherokee 5.7 Hemi/Quadradrive II

                        Long Island Sound Region

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Well said!

                          .
                          Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                          2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                          Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                          Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                          Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                          Comment


                            #14
                            What are the different types of cc systems? This has a water pump that circs all engine coolant like normal fed into an exchanger which is cooled by a belt driven water pump that draws lake water from skimmers and thru hulls. Looks like the exhaust is cooled by lake water as well and not the cc.

                            How do you winterize this system? Before i filled a 5 gallon bucket with antifreeze and riged it to muffs and pumped that through the entrie everything.

                            As far as engine build goes, i have found a nice shop and they do marine. I will investigate further but the costs as far less than MM. I understand mm is superb but were talking a difference of 6k at least.

                            I was looking at about $3500 a piece to rebuild. Thats just a long block, not exhaust.
                            1993 formula pc 31 twin 454 bravo 2
                            1989 2655 cierra 5.7 omc cobra
                            2014 "searay" tandom trailer

                            Anchor bay clinton river
                            Michigan

                            Comment


                              #15
                              "businessgetmoney" post=821528 wrote:
                              What are the different types of cc systems?

                              [color]blue wrote:
                              Each company builds their system a tad bit differently. However, the basic concept is extremely similar.

                              The heat extraction from the Ethylene Glycol coolant is similar to how a car/truck radiator extracts the heat.

                              The car/truck radiator dumps the heat into the fan forced provided air via a small tube system, whereas the Marine Heat Exchanger dumps the heat into the pump provided seawater via a tube bundle. Liquids are much more efficient at heat transfer. [/color]

                              This has a water pump that circs all engine coolant like normal fed into an exchanger ...............

                              [color]blue wrote:
                              That is the Engine coolant "Circulating" pump! It charges the cylinder block/cylinder heads with coolant.

                              The Thermostat holds back coolant on an "as required" basis.[/color]

                              which is cooled by a belt driven water pump that draws lake water from skimmers and thru hulls.

                              [color]blue wrote:
                              Whether river, lake or ocean water...... that is the "seawater pump"![/color]

                              Looks like the exhaust is cooled by lake water as well and not the cc.

                              [color]blue wrote:
                              A "Half System" provides E/G cooling for engine only, and uses the "spent" seawater to cool the exhaust system.

                              A "Full System" provides E/G cooling for engine and exhaust manifolds.

                              In either case, the exhaust Elbows are always SeaWater Cooled![/color]

                              How do you winterize this system?

                              [color]blue wrote:
                              You will drain down the SeaWater side of the system.

                              The E/G side will not require draining.[/color]

                              Before i filled a 5 gallon bucket with antifreeze and riged it to muffs and pumped that through the entrie everything.

                              [color]red wrote:
                              Please read this article regarding the Camco Winterizing Kits, and pass it along to any friends who may be doing the same thing! [/color]

                              [color]blue wrote:
                              You DO NOT want to be using these kits!!!!!

                              https://www.amazon.com/gp/review/R3B..._=glimp_1rv_cl[/color]

                              [attachment]40286 wrote:
                              Heat exchanger tube bundle contamination explained.jpg[/attachment]


                              Attached files

                              Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                              2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                              Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                              Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                              Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                              Comment

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