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1708 and epoxy?-gctid815211

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    1708 and epoxy?-gctid815211


    I just finished 2 layups of 1708 with aqua set epoxy. Dealer says it will work but not recommended. ..........this was after they told me it was ok to use with epoxy. So my issue here is...........i fully wetted out the glass until it was transparent, worked out the air bubbles and let set for almost 3 days now as if today. Yesterday I redrilled all the transom holes from the outside in. When I climbed back into the boat I found that around each hole I drilled it had the rough edges of dry fibreglass. When I pulled on these pieces I proceeded to pull off a long very thin strip of the top later of 1708 biaxial. Only one half of the biaxial cloth came off. ( it's 45/45 and only one layer of 45 came off) right out to the edge of the layer I applied over the whole transom. Yet when I go to sand the top layer with 60 grit paper it seems really hard. Have to work to scuff it good for another layer of glass.

    Any ideas. Should I just sand this surface layer down and reprep and add a layer of 16oz traxial possibly 2? Not sure what's going on there.
    Doug
    1995 2859 -extensively rebuilt/restored 2016/17
    496 big block - Bravo ll leg
    The Doghouse
    Prince George BC

    #2
    I've used west systems and system3 epoxies with fiberglass cloths (of various types) and I've not

    experienced what you are describing. I started working with West back in the early 80's. it is

    truly amazing epoxy.

    I can think of a couple things: the subsurface absorbed a

    lot of the epoxy and that starved the top layer of glass. or, you didn't have enough hardener or

    enough temperature to get a good cure-reaction or there was too much water wetness.

    basically, I suspect an inadequate cure. the typical cure that I've experienced is rock-like and no

    way to pry off the glass (within 60 minutes). Most of my experience was in a warm climate with

    ambient temps at 80F or above.

    I don't know for sure why you have that problem, but I suspect a cure deficiency.
    Novurania 335DL. 30HP. WKRP in cincinnati. Previously: Bayliner 3818 in PNW.

    Comment


      #3
      a quick idea... If this happened to me, I would buy some big long UV bulbs and bake the

      area with UV light for several days and greatly increase the ambient temperature in that

      area for several days (I'm talking at least 125-150F). I'd do this as a last ditch effort to get that

      epoxy as hard as rock.
      Novurania 335DL. 30HP. WKRP in cincinnati. Previously: Bayliner 3818 in PNW.

      Comment


        #4
        Need a little more information. Is the epoxy soft under the torn strips or is fully hardened ? If its fully hardened how hard was it to pull off those strips ? I've had chunks of bi-axial break of when cutting before but I never thought of pulling on the stands...If the epoxy is soft then something in the cloth inhibited the cure, you will need help from a factory rep or someone knowledgeable in epoxy chemistry. Have you though of making some test pieces exactly the same way you laid up the transom and destructively testing them ?
        1990 3888 Bayliner, Twin 351's

        Comment


          #5
          I did lay upsome test pieces in my shop today. Will have a look in the morning. I have a small heater out in the bilge now. Will let it go for the night.

          The surface underneath the strips is hard. I'm thinking I may have starved the top layer for resin when I was working out the bubbles. I sanded the entire transom today with 60grit and I had no problems feathering the edges where it meet the hull and transom ,good bond there. I had nothing delaminate anywhere while I was sanding. Seems good and hard. I put a heater out in the bilge for tonight. It has been cooling off pretty good at night here this summer.

          I am going to put a layer of 16oz traxial cloth I have over the entire transom possibly 2. I am pretty sure it's well bonded after the heavy sanding I did today . I was looking for it to delaminate somewhere and it did not.
          Doug
          1995 2859 -extensively rebuilt/restored 2016/17
          496 big block - Bravo ll leg
          The Doghouse
          Prince George BC

          Comment


            #6
            Sketch, I think your good. For whatever reason those strands didn't get enough resin soaked in, could have been poosible contamination in the fabric/mat or something. You say it's hard as a rock everywhere els and you've sanded it with 60. I say fill in those minor voids with thickened epoxy and lay your 16 oz over the whole thing. I used a 500 watt halogen work light for heat source while doing mine, made it easy to see too :silly:
            Dave
            Edmonds, WA
            "THE FIX"
            '93 2556
            Carbureted 383 Vortec-Bravo II 2.0:1 18 1/4x19 P

            The rebuild of my 2556 https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...76?view=thread
            Misc. projects thread
            https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...56-gctid789773

            Comment


              #7
              I don't really see any issues here . The glass behaved exactly as expected. The biax is on top of each other not woven in like in roven. It is stronger because you don't get the lever effect between the bundles, but will allow a single stand to rip out like you have experienced . You have no problems.
              1986 Bayliner Contessa 2850
              In over my head for sure!!
              M/V SKUA refit
              https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...ak-gctid499442

              https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...contessa-refit

              Comment


                #8
                The only issue with any fabric that has CSM is heavy resin usage. It's unnecessary with epoxy, but needed for poly to promote adhesion between layers. Almost all modern fabric is epoxy compatible. If anything it looks like you might be a tad heavy in epoxy. More epoxy will not yield a stronger laminate, 50/ 50 is considered good for hand layup. Ratios in the 30's are possible with vacuum infusion, and mechanical compression.
                1986 Bayliner Contessa 2850
                In over my head for sure!!
                M/V SKUA refit
                https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...ak-gctid499442

                https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...contessa-refit

                Comment


                  #9
                  Might be a matter of emulsion bound CSM vs powder bound CSM. In emulsion bound CSM, the binder is broken down by the polyester, but does not work well with epoxy. If the CSM has a powder based binder, it typically works with both epoxy and poly/vinylester.

                  Even if it would be emulsion bound CSM, think its good enough in this application, epoxy is superior to polyester. The laminate looks fine to me. For some strange reason i think its easier to hand laminate with polyester than epoxy, alternating cloth and emulsion binder csm, somehow easier to get the right saturation. Tougher with epoxy, but alternating thinner and coarser cloths helps there also.
                  Bayliner 2556 1990 project

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Thanks for the replies. The test piece I made showed the 1708 and the 16oz is plenty strong. Can't separate the glass and I went as far as beating on the pieces with a hammer. Neither the 1708 or the 16oz triaxial barely showed a Mark.

                    Went ahead and did a layer of the 16oz over 2 layers of 1708 and I finished with a layer 6oz. Looks pretty good seems solid. Time will tell!Lol.
                    Doug
                    1995 2859 -extensively rebuilt/restored 2016/17
                    496 big block - Bravo ll leg
                    The Doghouse
                    Prince George BC

                    Comment


                      #11
                      I didnt t see where you said what epoxy you used. If it was West system it will bind with any fiberglass cloth. However some other brands will not bind. The glues holding the biaxial together isn't compatible with some epoxies.

                      Although I don't think it's that big a deal. The other thing is epoxy is extremely technic sensitive always make sure it's mixed in the proportions as outlined and mixed well.

                      One other thing is it's usually recommended to cover and woven type of glass cloth with I'll include biax type too with a layer of mat or chop for the very reason for the problem you have here. It makes it much stronger and ties it all together.

                      When i do glass I always try if I can first layer chop/ mat ( makes for a good seal helps adhesion and helps alleviate bubbles) a layer of woven cloth or biaxial then mat and so on until you get you build up. I like to use the biaxial that has the mat sewn on to it. That goes on the top as to avoid what happened here. I always top it with mat or chop. It makes it stronger seals it and it's easier on the hands.

                      After all that blah blah :cheer: I think you are fine just stop pulling strips off. Sand and gelcoat ( yes you can gelcoat epoxy) or paint it it will help that from peeling off
                      1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge
                      twin 454's
                      MV Mar-Y-Sol
                      1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop ocean express.
                      Twin chevy 350's inboard
                      Ben- Jamin
                      spokane Washington

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Yachtman, you are correct, myself I am a fan of West System and there tech support is first rate.
                        Slightly modified 2859 6.5 Diesel Bravo III X drive
                        96 Dodge 5.9 5 speed Gear vender OD.

                        Comment


                          #13
                          I concur with aspen 1880. Mine dried to a hard surface

                          very quickly too. Garchar
                          GARCHAR
                          1988 2655
                          2009 Volvo Penta 5.7 300 hp DP F3s
                          Twice Past Commodore
                          Northwest Outboard Trailer Sailors, Eugene,OR

                          Comment


                            #14
                            The epoxy I used was called aqua set. Was what the place I dealt with in Vancouver recommended. Fibre tek was the company.

                            The 1708 is a biaxial cloth/mat. And the 16oz is a triaxial cloth. I finished with layer of 6oz finishing cloth. Turned out pretty good I think......especially for a newbie glasser. The transom is done and the gas tank area is all rebuilt now. Just waiting on the 3rd attempt at getting a tank built and then I can proceed. I may just pull the cylinder heads off the motor tomorrow while I'm waiting.........see what can of worms I can open up there!
                            Doug
                            1995 2859 -extensively rebuilt/restored 2016/17
                            496 big block - Bravo ll leg
                            The Doghouse
                            Prince George BC

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Sketch, you think you've got issues with the engine? Why you wanna pull a head? You could run it out of the boat on a temporary gas can and water supply then do a compression test to see where it's at.
                              Dave
                              Edmonds, WA
                              "THE FIX"
                              '93 2556
                              Carbureted 383 Vortec-Bravo II 2.0:1 18 1/4x19 P

                              The rebuild of my 2556 https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...76?view=thread
                              Misc. projects thread
                              https://www.baylinerownersclub.org/f...56-gctid789773

                              Comment

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