Avanti 3685 (34)hydraulic(34) steering . . . not very good-gctid815072

[Dadrock33]

Bought a 1998 Avanti 3685 and the steering is considered to be hydraulic (not powered) . . . . . what can I say . . . it's not my version of hydraulic but I don't expect like my truck . . still, should be easier, I think. . . . but it may be the "only option in the valley", if you catch my drift. I have to admit - haven't had the time to get real involved with it yet but do have a plan:

1) Remove pins from attachment to rudders so that system is "free" of any restrictions

2) Bleed system of any air (turning stop to stop and checking oil level at helm station reservoir) and see if the stiffness is still present [trying to separate the issue from either the rudder system or the steering system which includes the cylinder itself and maybe any kinked hoses]

3) If steering is much easier. then it's the rudder system itself; if not, then I'll have the cylinder rebuilt first before moving on to the helm station

4) If it is the rudder system . . . . well, that'll be a winter project for sure . . . . maybe time for a professional too.

So, look like a plan? A few questions need asked first though: Is Avanti steering tough to begin with, as in "normal"? (How do you measure, anyway?) Has anybody else had this issue on other Bayliner vessels and how did you resolve?

Thanks for the time and the thought . . . . . :cheer:

[TenMile]

Sounds like a good plan of action. Perhaps do the fill/air removal first before unhooking the rudders as that could be a quick fix. Mine has the upper/lower helm plus has a pressure chamber that I fill with air to 20PSI that helps push the fluid up. Do you have the pressure system or just the pump/ram?

[smitty477]

Is it just hard to turn or is it rough like its 'ratcheting'?

Sometimes this is caused by a pinched lines - does it turn well at a very very slow speed of turning?

[Dadrock33]

"TenMile" post=815091 wrote:
Sounds like a good plan of action. Perhaps do the fill/air removal first before unhooking the rudders as that could be a quick fix. Mine has the upper/lower helm plus has a pressure chamber that I fill with air to 20PSI that helps push the fluid up. Do you have the pressure system or just the pump/ram?

Terry - believe I have just the pump/ram . . . I'm hoping that some sort of pressure system can help my situation . . . only have the one helm station . . . . Dealer did the fill/air removal already but thought I might try it again . . . you never know

Smitty - no ratcheting . . . . feels fairly smooth, actually . . . just "hard to turn" . . was wondering if there was a steering restriction screw like I had on my 2452 (2003 version) but haven't found one if there is one . . . :whistle:

2850Bounty - Hey Rick, yeah, I'll have to look for a relief valve but is a relief valve necessary when there isn't any pressure on the system . . . I may be guessing here, ok? :S but I'm under the impression that this isn't "power steering", just hydraulic steering . . . turn the helm and a certain amount of hydraulic fluid goes out one hose and that same amount (hopefully) comes in the other hose . . don't think there's a pump or relief valve or any of that good stuff (pretty good with hydraulics from my farm equipment days). Your comment about a larger diameter piston is interesting though cause I had a similar thought (back about 30 days ago) but, like you said, more turns of the helm to accomplish the same "change" . . . guess I could increase the size of the helm wheel though and that would make it easier to turn . . . . . little physics thinking here . . . . . (ok, sometimes very little . . .:evil: ). Piston contacting the cylinder wall? Yep, good thought process there . . . guess the packing glands and rubbers or O-rings or Z-rings could be shot and not doing anything relative to easing the piston through the bore . . . . couple of good thoughts there.

Thank you gentlemen!!

[smitty477]

"Smitty - no ratcheting . . . . feels fairly smooth, actually . . . just "hard to turn" . . was wondering if there was a steering restriction screw like I had on my 2452 (2003 version) but haven't found one if there is one . . . :whistle:"

These systems have no power but are always easy to turn when set up correctly - we have had the same system on a 38, two 45's and a 47 Bayliner and the wheel is fairly easy to turn whether at the dock or up on plane.

Most all of them have been set up with about 7 turns lock to lock full over. Is it possible that they put some sort of heavier viscosity fluid in the system?

[smitty477]

Perhaps look at this link - does the helm look familiar?

http://www.local1259iaff.org/hydraulichelmrebuild.html

At the bottom of that link is another link on how to bleed the system - it also has some pics of the reservalve and other components - of they look familiar?

Do you happen you have an autopilot on the system?

[2850Bounty]

"Dadrock33" post=815235 wrote:

"TenMile" post=815091 wrote:
Sounds like a good plan of action. Perhaps do the fill/air removal first before unhooking the rudders as that could be a quick fix. Mine has the upper/lower helm plus has a pressure chamber that I fill with air to 20PSI that helps push the fluid up. Do you have the pressure system or just the pump/ram?

Terry - believe I have just the pump/ram . . . I'm hoping that some sort of pressure system can help my situation . . . only have the one helm station . . . . Dealer did the fill/air removal already but thought I might try it again . . . you never know

Smitty - no ratcheting . . . . feels fairly smooth, actually . . . just "hard to turn" . . was wondering if there was a steering restriction screw like I had on my 2452 (2003 version) but haven't found one if there is one . . . :whistle:

2850Bounty - Hey Rick, yeah, I'll have to look for a relief valve but is a relief valve necessary when there isn't any pressure on the system . . . I may be guessing here, ok? :S but I'm under the impression that this isn't "power steering", just hydraulic steering . . . turn the helm and a certain amount of hydraulic fluid goes out one hose and that same amount (hopefully) comes in the other hose . . don't think there's a pump or relief valve or any of that good stuff (pretty good with hydraulics from my farm equipment days).

[color]blue wrote:
Your helm unit is a manually operated hydraulic pump.

Your helm pump is likely a 5 piston pump.

These operate in a fashion that provides hydraulic fluid pressure as the helm wheel is turned in either direction.

This hydraulic pressure operates the hydraulic cylinder (and in either direction).

Hydraulic pressures can easily be in the range of 600 to 800 psi, with hose burst requirements being in upwards of 5k psi. [/color]

Your comment about a larger diameter piston is interesting though cause I had a similar thought (back about 30 days ago) but, like you said, more turns of the helm to accomplish the same "change" . .

[color]blue wrote:
The cure for that would be a 7 piston helm pump![/color]

. guess I could increase the size of the helm wheel though and that would make it easier to turn . . . . . little physics thinking here . . . . . (ok, sometimes very little . . .:evil: ).

Piston contacting the cylinder wall? Yep, good thought process there . . . guess the packing glands and rubbers or O-rings or Z-rings could be shot and not doing anything relative to easing the piston through the bore . . . . couple of good thoughts there.

[color]blue wrote:
This scenario typically causes fluid leaks..... not necessarily hard/stiff operation.

On that note..... make sure that your cylinder is not being placed in a "bind" or "out-of-alignment" scenario.

Here are a few images that I put together years ago.

Whether dual or single station, the cylinder connection will be very similar. [/color]

[attachment]38421 wrote:
Hydraulic steering valve parts and info 2.jpg[/attachment]

[attachment]38422 wrote:
Hydraulic steering cylinder base swivel.jpg[/attachment]


Attached files

[Dadrock33]

Smitty - could be (on the fluid being replaced with wrong stuff) - have added it to my list . . . . you add fluid to the system up at the helm station, there is a small port on the top of the "pump" . . . .don't have a manual for it yet . . . . need to get numbers and model and stuff, find it on-line, I'm sure. The link showed a helm different than mine but that doesn't mean the pumps are different . . . . I need to get more info off of the pump first and go from there.

Rick - yeah, need more info off of the pump and then decide which direction to go. If it is a 5 piston, then a 7 piston should do the trick so good call there! I'll check the hydraulic cylinder when I get back to the boat too. . . . could be an "alignment" issue for sure. Man, you sure do have the diagrams and photos and charts and stuff . . . . invaluable, my friend, invaluable!!!

Thanks, gentlemen . . . you each get a "TY" from me . . . not that you need it . . . just that you deserve it! :woohoo: :woohoo:

[smitty477]

You can look up a bunch of the hydraulic helms on this site...

boaterstore.com/Identify.html

[Dadrock33]

"smitty477" post=815377 wrote:
You can look up a bunch of the hydraulic helms on this site...

boaterstore.com/Identify.html

Wow, must be doing something wrong . . . . all I get is a "Go- Daddy" website asking if I want to purchase the domain name :S

[smitty477]

"Dadrock33" post=815378 wrote:

"smitty477" post=815377 wrote:
You can look up a bunch of the hydraulic helms on this site...

boaterstore.com/Identify.html

Wow, must be doing something wrong . . . . all I get is a "Go- Daddy" website asking if I want to purchase the domain name :S

Your right - sorry - it was working just 2 days ago....