Incompetent Mechanic-gctid391386

[Guest]

I had a repair shop pull the AQ125a from my 83' Trophy 2260 and replace it with a Vortec 4.3 in July of 2010. I have had to take the boat back to the shop many times since having the job done for engine issues. They have replaced the heads once and had to replace bent rods on another occasion. This was believed by me to be poor workmanship and the shop owner agreed and did the repairs at no cost. I just took it in again because I had a knock/tick similar to to the one I had experience before and after an inspection and compression check I had two bad cylinders and the engine had water in the oil. This is only 5 months after the engine was rebuilt. My assertion after some research was that the 1 piece OMC exhaust manifolds that were used by the shop were bad. That would cause the water to get in the cylinders, fouling plugs and bending rods with water compressing in the cylinders. The shop pulled the engine replaced the rings, rods and are now refusing to give me the engine back. The shop owner said that he believes the cause of the water in the engine is that there is no flapper in the bellows and that I had removed it. After calling 3 different Volvo repair shops I was told that the 270 did not even come with an internal flapper and that the only flapper needed was the external exhaust flapper. Any mechanics on here willing to go on the record that the Volvo 270 did not have an internal flapper and that they did not need one when they had the external flapper in place?

[2850Bounty]

Trotignon wrote:
I had a repair shop pull the AQ125a from my 83' Trophy 2260 and replace it with a Vortec 4.3 in July of 2010. I have had to take the boat back to the shop many times since having the job done for engine issues. They have replaced the heads once and had to replace bent rods on another occasion. This was believed by me to be poor workmanship and the shop owner agreed and did the repairs at no cost. I just took it in again because I had a knock/tick similar to to the one I had experience before and after an inspection and compression check I had two bad cylinders and the engine had water in the oil. This is only 5 months after the engine was rebuilt. My assertion after some research was that the 1 piece OMC exhaust manifolds that were used by the shop were bad. That would cause the water to get in the cylinders, fouling plugs and bending rods with water compressing in the cylinders. The shop pulled the engine replaced the rings, rods and are now refusing to give me the engine back. The shop owner said that he believes the cause of the water in the engine is that there is no flapper in the bellows and that I had removed it. After calling 3 different Volvo repair shops I was told that the 270 did not even come with an internal flapper and that the only flapper needed was the external exhaust flapper. Any mechanics on here willing to go on the record that the Volvo 270 did not have an internal flapper and that they did not need one when they had the external flapper in place?

When this conversion is done, the 3" AQ200B or AQ225B exhaust Y-pipe is used. This set things up for the 3" univeral Barr exhaust manifolds.... not OMC manifolds!

The 270/275 lower unit comes OEM with an exhaust flapper on the exhaust outlet. With this arrangement, there is no need for the internal bellows flapper.

The outlet flapper is superior to the internal bellows flapper, IMO.

Does the shop owner think that he was not responsible for making the corect suggestions and/or installing the correct components during the conversion?

Maybe we should back up here:

Who provided the engine, the conversion components, the V-8 flywheel cover w/ NEW PDS bearings, the correct lower unit ratio, the exhaust system and the expertise to do the conversion and tune the engine?

.

[Guest]

If they look at any online parts diagrams, they will undoubtedly see which flapper type yours would have come with. But even then, you should only need one flapper "system" in place (either in the bellows or the external one) and it isn't necessarily critical which place you have the flapper. I don't want to speak for Rick either, but at one point he recommended I remove the exhaust bellows (with internal flapper) from a previous 280 of mine, get a new "flapper free" bellows, and retrofit an external flapper on the lower unit. I believe it was along the lines that the external flapper was less likely to fail and didn't stiffen up over time. Rick--please correct me if I am remembering this wrong.

Is this mechanic trying to say you failed to install a 2-flapper system? Kinda sounds like a lame excuse on their part to try to get out of it. Not sure why you'd need 2 flappers inline.

[Guest]

Optimus wrote:
If they look at any online parts diagrams, they will undoubtedly see which flapper type yours would have come with. But even then, you should only need one flapper "system" in place (either in the bellows or the external one) and it isn't necessarily critical which place you have the flapper. I don't want to speak for Rick either, but at one point he recommended I remove the exhaust bellows (with internal flapper) from a previous 280 of mine, get a new "flapper free" bellows, and retrofit an external flapper on the lower unit. I believe it was along the lines that the external flapper was less likely to fail and didn't stiffen up over time. Rick--please correct me if I am remembering this wrong.

Is this mechanic trying to say you failed to install a 2-flapper system? Kinda sounds like a lame excuse on their part to try to get out of it. Not sure why you'd need 2 flappers inline.

The engine 4.3 V6 and all of the components were provided and installed by the shop. I had problems with the performance and after some advice from here on the forum had a 1:61 lower unit installed by a Volvo authorized repair shop. This mechanic is accusing me of removing the internal flapper causing the damage to the engine. He is saying now that he has rebuilt the engine I am the reason the engine has failed twice and he is unwilling to give me the engine back even though I gave him close to $5000 for the work. I was able to get my boat home and now have a court case scheduled for July 11th and a complaint filed with the Sate Attorney General. His only defense has been that I removed the flapper so I am just gathering as much evidence as I can to poke a hole in that "lame" excuse.

[Iproff]

Trotignon wrote:
The engine 4.3 V6 and all of the components were provided and installed by the shop. I had problems with the performance and after some advice from here on the forum had a 1:61 lower unit installed by a Volvo authorized repair shop. This mechanic is accusing me of removing the internal flapper causing the damage to the engine. He is saying now that he has rebuilt the engine I am the reason the engine has failed twice and he is unwilling to give me the engine back even though I gave him close to $5000 for the work. I was able to get my boat home and now have a court case scheduled for July 11th and a complaint filed with the Sate Attorney General. His only defense has been that I removed the flapper so I am just gathering as much evidence as I can to poke a hole in that "lame" excuse.

You need to find a local Volvo approved licensed technician that is willing to go to court with you. No amount of words posted here will be worth a nickle in court. I've been a expert witness a number of times in court over collision repairs and have seen people show up with "a guy that's been doing repairs for 30 years" (no license), the judge does not even let them testify. You need an expert witness.

Ken

If you can get documentation from Volvo that no internal flapper is required with the external flapper it would really help your case

[2850Bounty]

I agree. You not only need someone who is qualified, you'll need someone who is local, and who is willing and able to show up.

However, don't throw the forum information out with the bath water.

Use the forum(s) for information gathering so that you can be better educated with what's going on.

As for the Volvo Penta data, you will find installations whereby both the exhaust bellows flapper and the 270 style exhaust outlet flapper are used.

However, no where in the Volvo Penta information does it state that the bellows flapper is necessary if the exhaust outlet flapper is used.

If this was a mandate, all drives with the outlet flapper (280 production models, 290, 290 DP, SP, DP-C and later model drives) would be equipped with the exhaust bellows internal flapper.

Volvo Penta does offer this exhaust bellows both with the flapper, and minus the flapper.

Here is a bellows for the std 280 drive.

(with exception to some production models only, the 280 lower housing did not come fitted with an outlet flapper... only limited production models.)

Note the internal flapper.



Here is an exhaust bellows without the internal flapper.... commonly used with your 270 drive.



Your installer would certainly be aware that Volvo Penta also offers a replacement 250/270 and 275 style exhaust outlet housing w/ the flapper.

(these were/are available no other way!)





While we've gone in a direction that seems to imply that the lack of back flow prevention caused this damage, are you certain that this was indeed the cause?????

.

[2850Bounty]

I'm reading through this one more time.

Trotignon wrote:
1.... I had a repair shop pull the AQ125a from my 83' Trophy 2260 and replace it with a Vortec 4.3 in July of 2010.

I have had to take the boat back to the shop many times since having the job done for engine issues.

2... They have replaced the heads once and had to replace bent rods on another occasion. This was believed by me to be poor workmanship and the shop owner agreed and did the repairs at no cost.

3..... I just took it in again because I had a knock/tick similar to to the one I had experience before and after an inspection and compression check I had two bad cylinders and the engine had water in the oil. This is only 5 months after the engine was rebuilt.

4.... My assertion after some research was that the 1 piece OMC exhaust manifolds that were used by the shop were bad. That would cause the water to get in the cylinders, fouling plugs and bending rods with water compressing in the cylinders. The shop pulled the engine replaced the rings, rods and are now refusing to give me the engine back.

5.... The shop owner said that he believes the cause of the water in the engine is that there is no flapper in the bellows and that I had removed it. After calling 3 different Volvo repair shops I was told that the 270 did not even come with an internal flapper and that the only flapper needed was the external exhaust flapper.

6.... Any mechanics on here willing to go on the record that the Volvo 270 did not have an internal flapper and that they did not need one when they had the external flapper in place?

1.... Do have done this job correctly, the V-8 double exhaust relief transom shield should have been used along with the double relief V-8 Y-pipe.

The Volvo Penta 2 pc V-6 exhaust manifolds should have been used.... either in OEM, Osco, Barr, AquaPower, Sierra, and quite a few venders.

This is one manifold/riser whereby the aftermarket are the same size and foot print as the OEM.... and they would be the correct 95mm outlets to work with the 95mm Y -pipe.

As I mentioned earlier, an alternate to this would be the AQ200B or AQ225B single exhaust relief 3" Y-pipe used with your existing AQ125 single exhaust relief transom shield.

2.... Would replacing these parts at no cost indicate that the shop assumed liability for the damage.... or were they just being nice guys?

You get my point!

3.... How does their warrantee read?

4.... See #1 again.

Why the OMC 1 pc exhaust manifolds for an AQ series Volvo Penta 4.3L engine installation????

5.... I think that you've answered your question on this one.

6.... I've posted to the affect that if the drive outlet is equipped with a flapper, the internal flapper becomes unnecessary!

Question: Would a bad missing exhaust outlet flapper NOT be noticed by a competent shop?????

As for removing the flapper from the exhaust bellows......... have you tried this? Has the shop tried this?

That little frame work inside of the bellows is tougher than no body's business. These are difficult to remove.

Regarding #4.

The reason that I questioned the transom shield and the Y-pipe used, is that the double relief and single relief components cannot be interchanged and/or mixed and matched.

You must use one or the other, as the ports wil not align.

Not only does this affect the low RPM exhaust relief......., a water leak may be created.

I think that the focus of your argument (defense) should be to determine protocol for a correct engine conversion, and perhaps protocol for a competent shop regarding their check list.

Good luck to you.

.

[2850Bounty]

Trotignon, I'm reading through this one more time.

Hopefully I can share a few thoughts that may not have been considered.

Trotignon wrote:
1.... I had a repair shop pull the AQ125a from my 83' Trophy 2260 and replace it with a Vortec 4.3 in July of 2010.

I have had to take the boat back to the shop many times since having the job done for engine issues.

2... They have replaced the heads once and had to replace bent rods on another occasion. This was believed by me to be poor workmanship and the shop owner agreed and did the repairs at no cost.

3..... I just took it in again because I had a knock/tick similar to to the one I had experience before and after an inspection and compression check I had two bad cylinders and the engine had water in the oil. This is only 5 months after the engine was rebuilt.

4.... My assertion after some research was that the 1 piece OMC exhaust manifolds that were used by the shop were bad. That would cause the water to get in the cylinders, fouling plugs and bending rods with water compressing in the cylinders. The shop pulled the engine replaced the rings, rods and are now refusing to give me the engine back.

5.... The shop owner said that he believes the cause of the water in the engine is that there is no flapper in the bellows and that I had removed it. After calling 3 different Volvo repair shops I was told that the 270 did not even come with an internal flapper and that the only flapper needed was the external exhaust flapper.

6.... Any mechanics on here willing to go on the record that the Volvo 270 did not have an internal flapper and that they did not need one when they had the external flapper in place?

1.... To have done this job correctly (in order to keep it OEM), the V-8 double exhaust relief transom shield would have been used along with the double relief V-8 Y-pipe.

The Volvo Penta 2 pc V-6 exhaust manifolds would have been used.... either in OEM, Osco, Barr, AquaPower, Sierra, and several other venders.

This is one manifold/riser whereby the aftermarket are the same size and foot print as the OEM.... and they would be the correct 95mm outlets to work with the 95mm Y-pipe.

As I mentioned earlier, an alternate to this would be the AQ200B or AQ225B single exhaust relief 3" Y-pipe used with your existing AQ125 single exhaust relief transom shield.

There is also an early Ford single relief Y-pipe that could be made to work with the AQ125 transom shield.

2.... Would replacing these parts at no cost indicate that the shop assumed liability for the damage.... or were they just being nice guys?

Hopefully you get my point!

3.... How does their warrantee read? The first installation was in 2010, correct?

4.... See #1 again.

Questions:

Why the OMC 1 pc exhaust manifolds for an AQ series Volvo Penta 4.3L engine installation????

Were these new or used OMC exhaust manifolds?

Was this a recommendation by the shop?

Was this explained, and were you given an oportunity to approve this?

5.... I think that you've answered your question on this one.

6.... I've posted to the effect that if the drive outlet is equipped with a flapper, the internal flapper becomes unnecessary!

Questions:

If this shop is now concerned about an exhaust flapper, where was their concern when the engine was being installed?

Would a bad missing exhaust outlet flapper NOT be noticed by a competent shop?????

As for removing the flapper from the exhaust bellows......... have you or the shop tried this?

That little frame work inside of the bellows is tougher than no body's business. These are difficult to remove, but it can be done.

Regarding #4.

The reason that I questioned the transom shield and the Y-pipe used, is that the double relief and single relief components cannot be interchanged and/or mixed and matched.

You must use one or the other, as the relief ports will not align correctly.

Not only does this affect the low RPM exhaust relief......., a water leak may be created.

I think that the focus of your argument (defense) should be to determine protocol for a correct engine conversion, and perhaps protocol for a competent shop regarding their check list.

They must have used some type of check list before sending your boat out the door!

Good luck to you.

.

[Guest]

2850Bounty wrote:
Trotignon, I'm reading through this one more time.

Hopefully I can share a few thoughts that may not have been considered.

1.... To have done this job correctly (in order to keep it OEM), the V-8 double exhaust relief transom shield would have been used along with the double relief V-8 Y-pipe.

The Volvo Penta 2 pc V-6 exhaust manifolds would have been used.... either in OEM, Osco, Barr, AquaPower, Sierra, and several other venders.

This is one manifold/riser whereby the aftermarket are the same size and foot print as the OEM.... and they would be the correct 95mm outlets to work with the 95mm Y-pipe.

As I mentioned earlier, an alternate to this would be the AQ200B or AQ225B single exhaust relief 3" Y-pipe used with your existing AQ125 single exhaust relief transom shield.

There is also an early Ford single relief Y-pipe that could be made to work with the AQ125 transom shield.

2.... Would replacing these parts at no cost indicate that the shop assumed liability for the damage.... or were they just being nice guys?

Hopefully you get my point!

3.... How does their warrantee read? The first installation was in 2010, correct?

4.... See #1 again.

Questions:

Why the OMC 1 pc exhaust manifolds for an AQ series Volvo Penta 4.3L engine installation????

Were these new or used OMC exhaust manifolds?

Was this a recommendation by the shop?

Was this explained, and were you given an oportunity to approve this?

5.... I think that you've answered your question on this one.

6.... I've posted to the effect that if the drive outlet is equipped with a flapper, the internal flapper becomes unnecessary!

Questions:

If this shop is now concerned about an exhaust flapper, where was their concern when the engine was being installed?

Would a bad missing exhaust outlet flapper NOT be noticed by a competent shop?????

As for removing the flapper from the exhaust bellows......... have you or the shop tried this?

That little frame work inside of the bellows is tougher than no body's business. These are difficult to remove, but it can be done.

Regarding #4.

The reason that I questioned the transom shield and the Y-pipe used, is that the double relief and single relief components cannot be interchanged and/or mixed and matched.

You must use one or the other, as the relief ports will not align correctly.

Not only does this affect the low RPM exhaust relief......., a water leak may be created.

I think that the focus of your argument (defense) should be to determine protocol for a correct engine conversion, and perhaps protocol for a competent shop regarding their check list.

They must have used some type of check list before sending your boat out the door!

Good luck to you.

.

Thanks guys I do appreciate your help!

I know that his Flapper defense is a joke now I just need to convince a Volvo tech to testify for me. If you have any suggestions in the Seattle, Tacoma area let me know. Gas money and a steak are included.

[Guest]

What about the 3 other Volvo shops you said you contacted? Would they be willing to offer you the countering advice? I'm also a bit confused on the status of the engine--they refuse to give you the (repaired?) engine back, even though you paid for it and own it? How did the process move along in this most recent engine failure issue? Did you bring the boat back to them, and they just up and decided to pull the engine, rebuild it, and keep it for themselves? Did they give you an estimate/quote for repairs somewhere along the way that you either agreed to or did not agree to?

When this conversion and subsequent repairs were done, did you receive any other paperwork showing what parts were used for the conversion? It may be difficult to get a countering professional opinion, as they may not want to get involved, particularly if they don't have access to your boat and related parts and it sounds like it's already repaired but not reinstalled yet? Moreover, it would be difficult for anyone online to review the correctness of your installation without knowing how they did the conversion other than from a Volvo Penta 4 cylinder to a vortec V6 block with OMC manifolds. Lots of stuff had to be changed. Do you have access to your boat and other related parts?

What kind of shop is the troublesome repair shop in question, e.g. marina facility, "ma and pa" place, or other?

[Guest]

Optimus wrote:
What about the 3 other Volvo shops you said you contacted? Would they be willing to offer you the countering advice? I'm also a bit confused on the status of the engine--they refuse to give you the (repaired?) engine back, even though you paid for it and own it? How did the process move along in this most recent engine failure issue? Did you bring the boat back to them, and they just up and decided to pull the engine, rebuild it, and keep it for themselves? Did they give you an estimate/quote for repairs somewhere along the way that you either agreed to or did not agree to?

When this conversion and subsequent repairs were done, did you receive any other paperwork showing what parts were used for the conversion? It may be difficult to get a countering professional opinion, as they may not want to get involved, particularly if they don't have access to your boat and related parts and it sounds like it's already repaired but not reinstalled yet? Moreover, it would be difficult for anyone online to review the correctness of your installation without knowing how they did the conversion other than from a Volvo Penta 4 cylinder to a vortec V6 block with OMC manifolds. Lots of stuff had to be changed. Do you have access to your boat and other related parts?

What kind of shop is the troublesome repair shop in question, e.g. marina facility, "ma and pa" place, or other?

So I took the boat back to the shop in late March after noticing the tick again in the head and hard starting. The owner said it would take him a couple weeks to get it in, diagnose and repair the engine. After finding low compression on the two middle cylinders and water in the oil and on the plugs the owner said that he would need to pull the engine and and rebuild it. He has done these repairs in the past and guaranteed the engine as long as I owned the boat. On all of the repairs there has never been an estimate or quote either verbally or written he has just done the work and I was never asked to pay anything. Once the two weeks had gone by and the boat was not repaired he said he was busy and it would be done in a week. That week came and went and before long it had been two months. Now frustrated I tell him to get my boat done asap. He then tells me that he believes that I removed the internal flapper from the bellows and caused the damage so he is not going to put the engine back in the boat. I then tell him that I will then come get my boat and a check for the $5000 that I gave him for the conversion. He then says that if I want the engine I was going to have to take him to court. I then called the Sheriff and had a Deputy come out to 1. verify that I was leaving without an engine in my boat and 2. try to get the owner charged with theft. I was told it was a civil matter by the deputy and that I should get an lawyer. This facility is a marine repair shop in Gig Harbor Wa. I can shoot you the name in a PM if you are interested.

[2850Bounty]

OK.... the drive is a Volvo Penta 270, correct?

The 270 exhaust outlet is equipped with a flapper, correct?

If there is a flapper installed on the exhaust outlet, why is the internal bellows flapper necessary?

Or do we somehow now require two successive flappers for this system????

No other stern drive system that I am aware of requires one flapper after the other.

Is all of this boiling down to "he said/you said"?

If so, is his main contention that you removed the internal flapper?

And if you did remove the internal flapper, is he suggesting that this caused the engine damage?

And again, have you ever tried to remove one of these internal flappers?

Also, did you know that the bellows would offer tell-tale-signs of a flapper having been there previously?

Why not do the Forensics Work, and put this to bed?

.

[Guest]

2850Bounty wrote:
OK.... the drive is a Volvo Penta 270, correct?

The 270 exhaust outlet is equipped with a flapper, correct?

If there is a flapper installed on the exhaust outlet, why is the internal bellows flapper necessary?

Or do we somehow now require two successive flappers for this system????

No other stern drive system that I am aware of requires one flapper after the other.

Is all of this boiling down to "he said/you said"?

If so, is his main contention that you removed the internal flapper?

And if you did remove the internal flapper, is he suggesting that this caused the engine damage?

And again, have you ever tried to remove one of these internal flappers?

Also, did you know that the bellows would offer tell-tale-signs of a flapper having been there previously?

Why not do the Forensics Work, and put this to bed?

.

Yep 270 with a 280 lower unit with the external flappers on and in great shape. That is what it is coming down to he has no other complaints, that is what he is trying to claim is causing the damage. I have never removed an internal flapper and honestly had no clue there would even be one there. I still have the bellows on there and I can't see any sign of there ever being one. I know the job was bad and the flapper excuse is crazy I just need to get professional affidavits to go to mitigation with and hope this can be settled prior to court.

[Guest]

Do you even have the means to pull the boat out of the marina, including without the help of the marina in question? Who replaced that bellows last (if ever)? Or is if potentially original? Old bellows are usually pretty obvious to spot. If thd bellows has been replaced, who did it and can you get the part #? Otherwise, You or someone would have to pull the boat, remove the bellows, cut the internal flaps off (not even possible without destroying it?), and likely leave a hack job of remnants of flaps in there.

[baylineguy]

You might want to reconsider not putting the name of that business on this website. You really don't want to have to go to court over this. Lots of time and lots more money and grief will be involved. Sometimes the proverbial squeaky wheel gets the grease. I also live near Gig Harbor and I sure wouldn't want to use that business myself as it appears to me they may well be lacking in experience and also good business judgement.

If you still don't feel comfortable posting the name of this business on this board, then please send me a PM as I personally would like to avoid them in the future. Of course, if they do make this right for you in the future, make sure you let the forum know that as well. Best wishes to you.