need ignition module help, 1997 volvo penta 7.4gl serial # 4110125640-gctid345243

[2850Bounty]

orca wrote:


And sure, if your distributor is worn out, or of unkown but suspect condition, get a new one.

Yes, that or have the old one repaired to meet OEM specs!

That is generally one of my suggestions to these guys when doing the conversion kits.

orca wrote:
......................... Hope folks can see through this garbage. Do your own research as needed. Just because Bounty said it - doesn't make it so.

Agreed......, I would encourage anyone to do their own research, and by all means double check what I've had to say here.... don't just take my word on it!

Orca, apparently my comments have somehow stepped on your toes and ruffled your feathers a bit. I am sorry about that, but my thoughts on this remain the same.

If you search Pros/Cons Pertronix vs ????, you won't find much out there because Pertronix owns a large market share on the conversion kits.

Most anyone who is looking for an inexpensive means of converting will choose either the Hot Spark or the Pertronix kits.

They tend to love the inexpensive cost and the ease of installation......., and these do just fine on average.

Again.... let's just simply agree to disagree and leave it at that!

If you like the Pertronix kits, then that's great! I say ... Go For It!

Attached files http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/....jpg[/img]

bbruno,

Sorry I don't know if it will fit. I do have a Pertronix module in the shop from an '87 OMC Prestolite distributor. Once I locate it I could take a picture and measurements of it if that would help. I could get the model number as well. Headed to the shop in about an hour. Well, can't find it, but sounds like you got one ordered.

So let's see - from the above bunch of diagrams - each system has a wheel of some kind, and a pickup/electronics. They are generally the same size (they all fit in a distributor), but photo eye has a bit bigger pickup and electronics package.

And the conclusion is that since Pertronix only provides a wheel and a pickup/electronics in a nice package for a nice price, it is the inferior product. Hmmm...

So an animation of how a VR works proves it is superior?

A picture of a VR distributor proves it is superior?

A picture of a PE distributor proves it is superior?

A picture of a Pertronix hall effect distributor proves it is inferior?

Truly amazing science and test results!! Hope folks can see through this garbage. Do your own research as needed. Just because Bounty said it - doesn't make it so.

[2850Bounty]

Sadly, we don't even get away from this when we purchase a complete new Pertronix Ignition Distributor!

Automotive shown.... but the Marine triggering is same.





Orca, if you prefer this version of Hall Effect, and think that this is equal to VR or Optical.... then this is one case where we must simply agree to disagree.

No hard feelings... it's just conversation! Fair nuff?

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[2850Bounty]

..... or Photo Eye (optical).



Optical Sensor (below) .................................................. ........................ Rotor and Optical Wheel (below)



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OK... maybe cheezy isn't the best choice of words... but how would you describe how Pertronix is adapting the Hall Effect principle and as a retro-fit kit??

(See images below)

This is your complete Pertronix conversion kit... all right there in front of you.

This is all ya get in a conversion kit!





(continued).............

[2850Bounty]

I'd take the Pertronix over a Kettering Trigger .........



........... but certainly not over VR ......









... continued.....

"This is a rather cheezy way to create electronic triggering, IMO."

As RJH said, there is nothing wrong with a Hall Effect ignition trigger. You can search for VR and Hall Effect and find comparisons and comments from ignition experts. They never say they are less acurate, break more often, or are unworthy. They do say it is just another way to do the same function. It is also more expensive to build a hall effect unit, so it isn't like Pertronix is cheaping out or being cheezy.

Who knows how Pertronix builds their wheel? It may be accurate to 1/4 degree for all cylinders, or 1 degree, or 1/10 degree. You could call them and ask, I am sure they know what it is. To say it is inaccurate without having any test results, well some folks would simply call that BS.

And sure, if your distributor is worn out, or of unkown but suspect condition, get a new one. And check out Pertronix marine distributors - they are very nice and reasonably priced.

[2850Bounty]

Robert, you caught me red handed, and perhaps I need to qualify my statement.

You are correct.... there is nothing wrong with Hall Effect intrinsically... and in particular with flywheel triggering.

Flywheel Hall Effect uses a much larger radius, thus offering more point triggering accuracy.

The way in which Hall Effect triggers in an Ignition Distributor, is not all that different from VR.

The difference that I see with the Petronix method of using Hall Effect begins with the small radius at which the magnets are placed or positioned.

Look at that little Pertronix plastic assembly and at the small radius in which these magnets are embedded and positioned inside of an injected plastic unit.

How accurately are these positioned in such a small radius?

IMO, it's simply too small a radius given how the plastic housed magnetic unit is fabricated!

The sensor itself may be just fine!

OK... the VR reluctor is also of a small radius, but the 8 points are much more precisionally machined AND in a steel unit... not plastic!

OK... now look at the Photo Eye. The cuts in the rotor wheel are also at a larger diameter.... again, much more accuracy machined.

BTW, strobing one cylinder won't tell us anything regarding the other 7 cylinders and their position in the 720 degree cycle.

For this, we'd need to see the triggering event displayed on the degree wheel of a Distributor Machine.

I do agree that the margin of error may be minimal.

Now add this into the mix:

Guy wants electronic ignition.

He sees that the Pertronix kit is much less expensive than an entire replacement.

He sees that the Pertronix kit can be added to his existing distributor. (how many hours on this distributor?)

His original ignition issue may have been a dwell issue.

(cause... worn distributor shaft bushings)

His original ignition issue may have been mechanical advance related.

(cause... worn/rusty/stuck advance flyweights and/or weak flyweight return springs)

He installs the Pertronix kit with nothing else having been done.

Faster starts.... good idle..... all seems to work well initially..... he thinks that all is well.

But what if the shaft bushings are worn, or if the advancing system is not doing what it's suppose to be doing????

We cannot tune this out of it.

Each time that I see someone wanting to use the kit, I suggest having their distributor run on a machine and tested.

Then re-bushed if need be, and/or re-curved if need be!

That's my issue with these Pertronix kits of which just happen to be Hall Effect.

Robert, I'm very clear that Hall Effect works, and works well... so I don't think that we're in disagrement here.

I just don't think that Pertronix gave this enough engineering, and that they focused more so on making this a "Retro-Fit" kit that mounts onto an un-modified existing breaker plate.

Do they work? Yes they do!

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[Guest]

There is nothing wrong with using a hall effect sensor for ignition triggering. Ford used them for years quite successfully in literally millions of vehicles with the TFI modules. Aftermarkert EFI systems use a mix of hall effect and variable reluctor triggers, both work just fine. I use a home built set up with a latching hall effect sensor and flying magnets on the harmonic balancer. It's accurate and repeatable to within fractions of a crankshaft degree which is more than I need.

I don't know what Pertronix uses, but I used to have them on my engines. Using a timing light, the spark seemed steady through out the RPM range so I assume that the triggering is as accurate as you can get with any distributor type pick up.

[2850Bounty]

bbruno wrote:
I am trying to order 1582 from pertronix,

The Pertronix 1582 is a retro-fit kit.

These are Hall Effect ... not Photo Eye or VR (variable reluctor... magnetic).



This is a rather cheezy way to create electronic triggering, IMO.

This does zero for any worn shaft bushings and/or advance curve/limit accuracy.

You'd end up with a much better system if you went with a complete new distributor....., either in Photo Eye or VR.... VR being what I'd prefer.

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I am trying to order 1582 from pertronix,

I agree with Rick's post; If it looks like the top diagram it's a mech advance electronics points system.

I'd just phone Pertronix and tell them the year of the distributor and the make of the distributor, rather than the fact it's Volvo 'xyz', because that dist. was probably used for lots of different applications which would all take the same replacement part.

For example, when I wanted a replacement rotor for my Prstolite (When I used it) I found one at the local auto parts store under an International Harvester I-6 engine or something...it was identical.

The only thing about replacing it with a HEI, or any other dist, is that:

a) It should be marine rated, or sealed up by you if you feel confident in doing the work

b) It should have the same ig advance curve (Or similar) which can involve different springs and a bunch of time behind the timing gun, at least in the HEI model

Chay

[2850Bounty]

Well, it will very likely work just fine.

Suggestion:

If the Pertronix that you are looking at is Hall Effect, I'd suggest looking at a few others.

Delco offers an HEI that uses mechanical advance.

Mallory offers a good tried and proven mechanical advance VR system.

Malloy aslo offers a mechanical advance photo eye system.

Either works well, but my preference would be the VR over that of photo eye.

MSD Ignition offers the 8560 Marine Distributor ... mechanical advance w/ magnetic triggering.

You can also go EST if you want to..... and this could include HEI.

These are typically photo eye.

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If you do move away from EST, your ignition timing procedure now changes from that of setting BASE only, and allowing the module to control advance.

YOU will now be in control of making certain that the progressive advance meets your OEM specs.

Each brand ignition distributor will offer a pre-set advance curve and limit..... but it is wise to double check this, IMO.

Volvo Penta shows this for a basic and acceptible curve for your engine.

The vertical degree scale will not include BASE, so BASE must be added when doing the math.

However, BASE will be automatically seen when strobing the timing marks.



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2850Bounty wrote:
I don't think that I'm the one to ask on this....... but I'll take a shot!

The 7.4GLIHUB unit that you just linked to appears to be a mechanically advancing unit (seq # 6) and uses a triggering system (seq # 4).

This would be a fairly standard electronic ignition w/ no ECM/ECU type controller module.... no knock sensor interface, etc.

IOW, it is not EST.



The 7.4GLPHUS shows a crankshaft position sensor (seq # 30)..... and I believe that the distributor is just that.... "Spark Distribution" only... not a combination triggering unit and spark distributor, if I'm interpreting this correctly.

Note the crank position wheel...... and no flyweights nor triggering unit within distributor.

This would be an EST w/ the module and knock sensor being used.



To use the 7.4GLIHUB sysstem...., it looks like you'd be circuventing the OEM 7.4GLPHUS system.

Your 7.4GLPHUS is carbureted.... correct???

Volvo Penta Exploded view / schematic CARBURETOR 7.4GLPHUS, 7.4GLIHUB



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yes carbureted and it looks like the top diagram, it looks like the same prestolite distributor that was on my 89 omc cobra, that had a 5.7l in it, I put a pertronix in that one so I figured I may be able to do the same to this

[2850Bounty]

bbruno wrote:
rick thanks for the reply my ignition module is like 7.4GLIHUB, part # 3854077 it shows out of production on that engine schematic. do you know if a pertronix will fit. here is the link to the page that shows what the part looks like, the serial # I gave was off the engine http://www.marinepartseurope.com/en/...-28-35451.aspx

I don't think that I'm the one to ask on this....... but I'll take a shot!

The 7.4GLIHUB unit that you just linked to appears to be a mechanically advancing unit (seq # 6) and uses a triggering system (seq # 4).

This would be a fairly standard electronic ignition w/ no ECM/ECU type controller module.... no knock sensor interface, etc.

IOW, it is not EST.



The 7.4GLPHUS shows a crankshaft position sensor (seq # 30)..... and I believe that the distributor is just that.... "Spark Distribution" only... not a combination triggering unit and spark distributor, if I'm interpreting this correctly.

Note the crank position wheel...... and no flyweights nor triggering unit within distributor.

This would be an EST w/ the module and knock sensor being used.



To use the 7.4GLIHUB sysstem...., it looks like you'd be circuventing the OEM 7.4GLPHUS system.

Your 7.4GLPHUS is carbureted.... correct???

Volvo Penta Exploded view / schematic CARBURETOR 7.4GLPHUS, 7.4GLIHUB



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