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    5.7 volvo rebuilt or ?-gctid373508

    i think that i hijacked apexaro1 thread- sorry

    this what i have

    the engine had back fire so needs rebuild

    the engine is a part now so i look at it and :

    block 3970010

    heads 338882 (look like 76cc ) maybe 333882

    intake 346250

    crank 3932442

    rochester quadrajet 4brl carburator

    closed cooling

    pistons like this 040

    volvo 280 leg

    is this setup ok to rebuild or go with the newer vortec (if i have to change manifolds )

    Attached files [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/676923=26747-31NZ+Ic3+iL__SL500_AA280_.jpg[/img]

    #2
    Andrew, all of this can be rather intimidating at first.

    Once you get into it and play with the numbers, look at the parts..., etc, it will begin making more sense to you.

    andrew 1 wrote:
    i think that i hijacked apexaro1 thread- sorry

    block 3970010

    heads 338882 (look like 76cc ) maybe 333882

    intake 346250

    crank 3932442

    is this setup ok to rebuild or go with the newer vortec (if i have to change manifolds )
    Yeah, that was a bit of a HiJack, but your questions were on topic.... so I doubt that he minded.

    Yes... the Vortec cylinder heads require a Vortec intake manifold.

    Apparently your 338882 cylinder head number comes up for the SBC 400 ci engine, they're showing 76cc chambers.

    This should be a heavy casting, which is good.

    The block 3970010 ... 1969-79, 3970010, 350, 185, 370, 2 or 4, car, truck, Vette. 1970-73

    That is a fairly early block.

    There will be more info on this, and some may vary.

    The crankshaft p/n 3932442 shows the 3.480" stroke for the 69-85, 2.45/2.10, cast large journal ...

    Don't let the cast large journal throw you. All crankshafts undergo a final forging process.

    With the 3.480" stroke, and the 76cc chambers, the flat top pistons offers a quench surface and very close to the correct C/R.

    I like to see the single valve relief F/T pistons used rather than the double valve reliefs.

    Keep in mind that the compressed head gasket thickness, along with the deck height, all need to be in harmony to make a good quench for Marine use.

    If I were you, I start with my http://"http://www.baylinerownersclu...n this thread.

    Skim over both of Giddy-Up's threads again.

    Look at his piston damage!

    Go to his second thread http://"http://www.baylinerownersclu...arine pistons?, and read the part re; the on-line calculator (Sick's Static C/R Calculator).

    Open a fresh IE page, and launch the Sick's Static C/R Calculator.

    Open it up and clear all data fields.

    In post # 6 of Giddy-Up's second thread, I laid out some calculations for him.

    Your numbers will be different, depending on which cylinder head you choose, and depending on whether you go .040" over rather than .030" over bore.

    Plug in your numbers, use the deck height dimension, the compressed head gasket thickness, and the 3.480" stroke that I used.

    Play with the [SIZE]4 wrote:
    -[/SIZE]
    dish volume value, and see what you come up with for a static C/R.

    BTW: this will NOT be a volume for a full dished piston, this will be the dish volume of a Quench Style piston.

    The calculator won't know the difference, as each piston "dish volume" is entered as a [SIZE]4 wrote:
    -[/SIZE]
    dish volume value.

    Difference being... the pistons that you hopefully select, will offer a deck area that "mirrors" the cylinder head wedge area.

    That's where the "quench" or "squish" occurs!

    The dish volume is to simply control the C/R.

    The Full Dished piston can not create a quench, as there is no deck surface under the wedge that mirrors it... not even close!

    ****************

    OK... in post #20 of Apexaro1's thread, you give some casting numbers.

    You also show the full dished piston.

    Again.... you do NOT want to use that full dished piston...., unless for some reason you see it as being a good choice.

    I do not! Never have, never will!

    So, bottom line, run your calculations based on the static C/R that you want in your build.

    This will get you the information that you need to order pistons.... or it will help you when you speak with a piston supplier person.

    First... cylinder head selection.

    Second... piston selection.

    The rest are known's, but some can be changed along the way.

    .
    Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
    2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
    Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
    Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
    Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

    Comment


      #3
      i was just trying to shaw what i have right now and needs rebuilt.the pistons are in now that is not my choice that`s why i needed an opinion.

      Your reply i going to shaw to my mechanic so i hope he can make the decisions

      thank You

      Comment


        #4
        nope, dont mind one bit. Thats what these forums are for... gaining knowledge and passin it on.

        Comment


          #5
          andrew 1 wrote:
          i was just trying to shaw what i have right now and needs rebuilt. 1... the pistons are in now that is not my choice that`s why i needed an opinion.

          Your reply i going to shaw to my mechanic so i hope he can make the decisions

          thank You
          OK... I'm somewhat confused.

          You started a thread asking about a SBC build.

          I assumed that the purpose was to gather some information as to what the best build would be.

          Machine shops typically build to our specs.

          Questions:

          Not following #1.... your pistons are in... as in "they have been ordered and delivered"???

          Or as in "they have been installed in the engine block"???

          Is it safe to assume that we're talking about the full dished pistons like you showed earlier????

          If so, were they instructed to use this style piston???? (remember, they build to our specs, unless otherwise agreed upon)

          If installed, I doubt that anyone is going to be very happy about removing pistons that have already been installed onto connecting rods, ringed and installed in the cylinders.

          You are using the 76cc chamber heads, correct???

          What is the dish volume of the piston selected???

          If you run the calcs on the full dish using negative 12cc, you come up with close to 8.6:1 C/R.... which leads me to my next questions....

          Who made this choice, and is a machine shop person doing the assembly, installing the pistons, yada yada yada...., or is a mechanic doing the assembly, installing the pistons, yada yada???

          Don't mean to sound critical here, but I am curious.

          .
          Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
          2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
          Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
          Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
          Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

          Comment


            #6
            yeah im lost too...

            Comment


              #7
              ok ,lets try again.what i shaw is what engine i have right now -bad engine ,needs rebuild

              i did not order or even start with the engine that`s why i was hoping for opinions what i have currently and what to change to have better engine.i read a lot but when i get confuse i start asking ???

              1 -those pistons are in the bad engine i did not yet start the rebuilding

              You are using the 76cc chamber heads, correct??? - yes

              What is the dish volume of the piston selected??? - i don`t know

              Who made this choice, and is a machine shop person doing the assembly, installing the pistons, yada yada yada...., or is a mechanic doing the assembly, installing the pistons, yada yada??? -nobody made any choices yet.i will magnaflex the block,heads,intake ,rebuilt or buy new carburator an friend of my 22 years expierence car mechanic will do the job( he did many rebuilds included 454 in my bus conversion and runs very good,i trust him ).that`s why im trying to find out what to change to have better engine.

              all the numbers and piston picture are in the BAD engine which needs to be rebuild.

              sorry for my english but im trying my best.

              my friend told me that the cylinders need a honning they are very good.carburator,starter need to be rebuild or new

              this engine was out for obout 1 year and has less that 100 hours after rebuild.like i said before -was backfire.

              that`s why i was suspicious that was something wrong with the build

              that was my reason for this thread

              Comment


                #8
                Andrew, your English is just fine.

                BTW, where are you, and what nationality are you?

                OK, I think that I'm clear now.

                The casting numbers and pistons are what you now have.

                The pistons that you show are we call the "full dished" pistons.

                Not a good piston selection for Marine no matter which cylinder head is used.

                So that should cover that question... but in my opinion only!

                The block, crank and heads that you have will work if they are re-usable.

                So that should cover that question.... but again, in my opinion only!

                If you use these 76cc chamber cylinder heads, 350 crank (3.480" stroke), you can use the flat top piston as I noted earlier.

                C/R will be in the range of 9.4:1, and you can set up a quench dimension that works.

                My recommendation would be a flat top with single vavle reliefs, although "double reliefs" would not be a deal breaker.

                If you were to go with the Vortec cylinder heads, you'll want to know that the combustion chamber size is no longer 76cc, but will now be 64cc.

                This changes the piston, in my opinion!

                If you are OK with full dish piston, and being in the 8's:1 C/R range, then use the full dished piston with the 64cc Vortec cylinder heads!

                NOTE: you will end up with ZERO quench! :sorrow:

                The flat top w/ the 64cc Vortec cylinder heads will put you in the range of 10.9:1 ..... of which is too high, IMO.

                In order to maintain the quench area with the 64cc chambers (whether Vortec or not), we use a D-dish, Low Compression Quench or a Reverse Dome piston.

                Non-Vortec, the D-dished works well.

                Vortec, the LC Quench better mirrors the wedge shape of the Vortec.

                Again, with any of these pistons, the dish volume (which is variable by piston p/n) will control the static C/R.

                Easiest way to think of this, is to first look at your knowns:

                bore = .................................................. ....... 4.030" or 4.040"

                stroke = .................................................. ..... 3.480"

                desired piston deck height = ............................ .016" or so

                desired compressed head gasket thickness = ....... .022" or so

                quench area as a result of the 2 above = ........... .038" to .040"

                Then look at your Un-knowns or Variables:

                Piston dish volume = ............................ ????

                Cylinder head chamber volume = ......... 64cc or 76cc (there are others, but these will be the two most likely)

                This is where the Static Compression Ratio Calculator is used.

                So go to Sick's Static C/R Calculator (or any of the other on-line calculators), plug in some numbers, and see what you come up with in the 9.0:1 to 9.4:1 range.

                I can't help you any further until a cylinder head selection is made.

                Here's an example only of a very expensive forged piston on a very expensive H beam connecting rod.

                A good Hypereutetic piston (same style/shape), and stock GM connecting rod will do just fine for your build.

                A similar piston would work with the 64cc chambers and give a quench effect.

                Plug in a dish volume of -14 or -16, and see what you come up with for a static C/R.



                .
                Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                Comment


                  #9
                  im in surrey bc canada and im polish.

                  i don`t want to spend a lots of money to rebuild this engine.

                  im going to clean and hone the block.right now the pistons are .040 so i will have to stick with this size.im going to use the same heads - 76 cc

                  i did the calculator but i think that i did something wrong.

                  1 - 1

                  2 - 4.040

                  3 - 3.480

                  4 - 4.040

                  5 - 0.22

                  6 - 76

                  7 - -16

                  8 - 0

                  c/r - 6.289078073202275

                  total displacement - 138.21430223504313

                  Comment


                    #10
                    i found a diff calculator - i think easier one

                    http://www.thedirtforum.com/Cidcalc.htm

                    i wrote :

                    bore-4.040

                    stroke- 3.480

                    n0 of cyl -8

                    head volume -76

                    gasket-.025

                    that gave

                    c/r - 9.996824906370

                    cid - 356.8805

                    when i changed the gasket thicknes to 0.050 v/r gave me 9.4506

                    Comment


                      #11
                      i think that i got it

                      http://www.race-cars.net/calculators...alculator.html

                      1 - 4.040

                      2 - 3.480

                      3 - 8

                      4 - 76

                      5 - 0.00 (flat top )

                      6 - 0.50

                      tha`t gave me :

                      displacement - 357

                      liters - 5.85

                      c/r - 9.453

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Andrew, theDirtForum.com and Race-Car.net calculators do not allow for piston deck clearance, so the compressed head gasket thickness is throwing you off.

                        Use the Sick's calculator or the United Engine & Machine Co. or the GTSparkplugs.com calculator if you want to include this.

                        Sick's will allow for a flat top piston valve relief volume. Throw in -1cc or -2cc and see what comes up.

                        .
                        Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                        2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                        Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                        Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                        Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                        Comment


                          #13
                          1 - 1

                          2 - 4.040

                          3 - 3.480

                          4 - 4.040

                          5 - 0.035

                          6 - 76

                          7 - -2

                          8 - 0.015

                          c/r 9.2.59 in sick`s calc

                          can i just go the the store and say i need single relief flat top pistons .040 for marine use and marine head gasket .035 thick ?

                          im don`t really need the marine gasket becouse it will be a c/c system.

                          You wrote :

                          If the chamber volume is 76cc, then a F/T piston will bring the C/R to just about where you want it to be

                          ÔÇóThe same F/T pistons with 76cc chambers = 9.1428:1 static C/R.

                          This is the piston that You recomend on the other forum and this should be a good choice for my setup.

                          i am correct ?

                          Attached files [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/677179=26788-flat%20top%20ebay_12.jpg[/img]

                          Comment


                            #14
                            Andrew, I think that flat top would work. I believe that you are showing a Keith Black piston. KB's are rather expensive, but good quality.

                            Look at some of the other brands in Hypereutectic material. You could probably do as well for your purpose.

                            All the supplier needs to know is SBC, the bore and the stroke, and that you'll be using the OEM connecting rods.

                            As for the head gasket, I don't believe that you are understanding how the gasket thickness and deck height relate to the quench dimension.

                            Are you looking at any of the threads that I linked you to????



                            The image above shows both deck clearance and compressed gasket thickness. The image exaggerates the distance for demonstration.

                            As you can see, the piston deck clearance holds the piston down in the bore and away from the cylinder head by .0XX".

                            The compressed gasket thickness will hold the cylinder head off the block by .0XX".

                            The sum of both will equal the quench dimension.... and can be varied by the compressed thickness that you select.

                            The recommended goal is .038". (the hot rod guys target a larger quench dimension, but are running higher RPM)

                            Your machine shop person should be able to help you with this.

                            After the cylinders are bored, have him set the crankshaft, connect the pistons to the rods, and fit several of them.

                            Right then you will be able to check and see what the deck clearance is.

                            .
                            Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                            2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                            Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                            Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                            Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Look at some of the other brands in Hypereutectic material - i will this picture is just example of the piston

                              You are 100% right that i don`t understand

                              with Your help i was hoping that i can print out the calculator c/r go to the shop and order parts

                              if i will go with this pistons (single relief f/t )and i will do i have to do something to the heads ? becouse im putting a different pistons ?

                              i don`t want to end up with bad engine again (that was bad choice by the shop ).i preffer to go and tell them exactly what i want.

                              what about the carburator (rochester quadrajet 4 brl ) stick with this one or go for different one ?

                              one more ? - with my block (0.040 over which will give me 357-359) ,76cc heads ,f/t pistons,correct camshaft (Melling Performance 22124 -can i use this one ) what hp im looking at

                              Comment

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