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    Hino Alternator External Regulation Conversion

    Hello all,

    I am having a project on my boat to have the alternators externally regulated. Thus far with my LiFePO4 project I've had the batteries exclusively charged with the shore power or generator but it really seems to be a shame to have 160Amps just sit around twiddling their thumbs when I am relocating the boat from anchor to anchor. So, for that purpose I want to externally regulate the alternators.

    Now, I already have the system picked out, so I don't need help with that. What I do need help with is getting the alternators converted to externally regulated capability.

    Click image for larger version

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    That green plug with the red and yellow wire going in are connecting the alternator to the regulator... I believe. I am trying to figure out HOW I can make these suckers externally regulated. I thought it would be easy but it doesn't seem to be.

    The other option is to just buy externally regulated alternators. That is a 2 gauge wire so technically I could go to a 100amp output alternator that is externally regulated for about $150.

    Anyone deal with this stuff?

    Thanks.
    Attached Files
    Ships n Giggles
    1993 Bayliner 4388
    MMSI# 367412710
    Day Island Yacht Club
    Commodore

    #2
    You need to get to the wires that are going to the internal regulator- that means you would have to disassemble the alternators. Personally I would take them to an alternator shop and have them set them up with your external regulators. They can test them and verify that the output voltage and charging current is correct for your Life PO4 batteries
    Gibraltar, Mi.
    1986- 3870- Hino 175's
    1988 26' Shamrock/ Diesel
    14' Zodiac Bay Runner

    Comment


      #3
      It's more then just changing to an external regulator, Get a larger alt. and a external regulator. In order to get much over 150 amps it requires a serpentine belt. A double sheave alt is easy to find.... a 3 stage smart regulator is also a must for efficient charging.https://marinehowto.com/category/alternators/ best info out there....

      Comment


        #4
        I replaced my Densos with 140 amp Delco’s I ran new charging cables (25’ of 8ga) alongside side the deactivated orange charging wire. The whole conversion cost less than getting one of the Densos repaired.
        P/C Pete
        Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
        1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
        Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
        MMSI 367770440

        Comment


          #5
          Thanks for the info.

          Like I mentioned, I have everything else sorted out. I'm using the Wakespeed WS500 external regulators to achieve proper synch and charging of the batteries. Just trying to figure out if the alternators are worth converting or not. Between the two I can expect 120Amps of constant charging current which is better than what I'd get off of shore power anyways. The lithium batteries will take whatever I throw at them but honestly I'm not looking to charge these in 5 minutes. Just additional charging while moving the boat from anchor to anchor, which usually runs a couple of hours for me. Next years project will be adding 750 watts of solar power to charge while at anchor. That will essentially eliminate the need for the genset. I'll be honest, I'd like to yank that sucker out of the boat and never look back.

          Pcpete I assume that the Delco was internally regulated.

          Ships n Giggles
          1993 Bayliner 4388
          MMSI# 367412710
          Day Island Yacht Club
          Commodore

          Comment


            #6
            I had my 140 amp Delco Remy alternators converted from internal to external regulation by Whatcom Electric in Bellingham. If I remember correctly, it was about $125 per alternator.
            2000 4788 w Cummins 370's, underhulls, swim step hull extension
            12' Rendova center console with 40HP Yamaha
            MV Kia Orana
            Currently Enjoying the PNW

            Comment


              #7
              Yes, the Delcos I installed are internally regulated. I plan on buying a couple of spare regulators so that if one goes I can easily replace it.
              I’m concerned that you are thinking the orange charging wire is 2ga, unless that’s a typo. It’s more like a 10ga and not a particularly high strand count. I replaced the orange wires with a high strand count 8ga marine wire and left the orange one in place and disconnected. It took 25’ and luckily I did the port engine first because that wire just goes around the back of the engine to the starter solenoid. I needed all of the rest to get from the starboard alternator to the switch panel. My panel is outboard of the port engine and is right inside of the engine room door. You may need more wire depending on where your battery panel is.
              The round plug does two things. The red wire is a constant hot, and the yellow is connected to an oil pressure switch mounted near the oil filter that turns the alternator on once there is enough oil pressure.
              Maybe it’s the angle of the picture, but I’m only seeing one belt driving the alternator and since that belt also turns the engine coolant pump, it’s making me go uh... I’m the first to admit there may have been a change between the EH700’s in my 1988 3818 and your 1993 WT06(?) but you should double check to see if you should have two belts turning the coolant pump and alternator.
              We seldom anchor overnight although I enjoy it, the Admiral, not so much. I need to figure out a sound shroud for my generator, we have an electric stove, and she likes her hot shower to start the day. Trying to run that water heater would be a bit hard on the inverter and inverter batteries.
              P/C Pete
              Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
              1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
              Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
              MMSI 367770440

              Comment


              • Kwood
                Kwood commented
                Editing a comment
                OEM alternator wire on m 1989 Hino EH700TI is 8 gauge. I replaced stb with 4 g when I installed a Sterling AB to feed the lithium back and FLA stb start battery.

              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                Eh, I glanced at the wire... My thinking was based on the modern assumption that 80amps=2ga wire... but I guess that's wrong. Upgrading the wire is not that hard but I don't need to do that if I am not increasing the output of the alternators.

                There are 2 belts, so no worries there.

                One of the reasons that I upgraded to LiFePO4 batteries was cooking without running the generator. I put in a 1800W induction cooktop that takes care of all of our needs. So the inverter can handle it if I am not pushing it to the max (and I always cook on medium so that's fine).

                The way I take care of the hot water issue is that I upgraded to an 18 gallon Raritan water heater. So when I run my engines the water is at 180 degrees, then gets knocked down to 120 by the internal heat regulator unit upon dispensing... and then gets mixed with cold water once again at the faucet. So long as I move the boat every other day, there is no need for the water heater. If I know I will need to stay put for more than 2 days, I will turn the water heater on the 2nd day I run the generator. That provides enough hot water for another day or two at least.

                The wires at the back of the alternator is what I was trying to figure out. I was hoping that there is a way to make this work without having to break into the alternators. It seems I will have to take them off and have an alternator shop take care of it once I am done cruising for the summer.

              #8
              First question I would ask is what is the maximum voltage allowed of charging of LiPo batteries. The stock alternators charge strong to about 13.8 volts then tamper off rather quickly. I assume that LIPO do not need maximum voltage below that. If so then the alternators as is will do a good job of charging the batteries.

              I did at one time have an alternator shop evaluate converting to an external regulator set up but was highly encouraged to leave it stock as the internal regulator was well match to the design of alternator. He feared over loading the alternator with an external regulator.

              So I would us them as is.
              Ron O'Blenis
              B 38 175 Hinos 1989
              Completed Great Loop
              https://ronandfaye.blogspot.com/

              Comment


              • RDOIII
                RDOIII commented
                Editing a comment
                The OP was asking about supplementary charging from the alternators. Based your information that maximum charge voltage for the LIPO is 14.1, then the stock alternators seem to be a good match as they taper off real fast after 13.8 volts and objective seemed to be to get some amount of charge from the alternators. So I would try the stock set up and see what it does before changing out the alternators.

              • Kwood
                Kwood commented
                Editing a comment
                LiFePO4 full charge is 14.6v - 3.65v per cell. some manufacturers are 3.7v per cell. Problem is without robust active cell balancing when you get close to the upper limit one cell can go over that threshold and be damaged

              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                Maximum voltage is not relevant for several reasons. Primary is the fact that the alternators will give any voltage required or designated by the regulators. They have an internal transformer that takes 3 phase AC current and converts it into DC. The assumption is that the max sustained output of the alternator is [email protected] volts. So if the requested voltage is 14.7volts then the output would be limited to 75Amps.

                Again, external regulators will provide the proper charge curve already designated in the programing and will manage the alternator output based on the battery voltage and temperature. I am toying with automating the entire process by tying the alternator regulators with the battery BMS so that the charging is completely controlled by the battery electronics but that will be next year's project.

              #9
              If your charging lithium, make sure you have temperature sensors on alternators, and program regulator to limit temperature.
              Lithium will take the maximum the BMS will allow right up to 100% charged. Opposite charge profile to lead acid batteries.
              AGM's and especially flooded have fairly steep resistance curve when charging. They will take lots of current up to 50% then current starts to taper down until absorption where current tapers off as resistance rises.
              Our little denso's, motorola styles and delco's and all small case alternators were never designed to run at continuous high outputs( small cases started out in cars in 1960's between 35 and 65 amps). They can be modded to tremendously increase output, but remember its still a small case and cooling becomes problematic at higher continuous outputs
              Controlling alternator temperature is imperative.
              Use infrared heat tool to check alternators after system is operational. Check back of alternator where diodes are, side of case where stator winding are and nose bearing behind pulley. 200 F is dangerous, winding's are cooking the shellac... diodes way beyond efficient temperatures.
              For longevity don't run continuously over 150 F. 175 F for less than 10 minutes in a pinch.
              Experiment with engine rpm's to find sweat spot for best output and lowest temperature.
              Another way to increase output and lower temperatures is converting alternator to EXTERNAL rectification. Diodes are mounted on remote heat sink with fan removing close to 50% of heat load. Alternator output becomes 3 phase AC delta wound machine( some are wye wound stators not common Ford had some wye wound in 1970's and 80's).
              Most alternator shops can bring the stator winding's outside of case for external rectification..
              Happy alternator = happy life
              Last edited by Roddy; 08-23-2020, 10:31 AM.
              Rod
              1991 4387
              Sidney, BC

              Comment


              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                If you ever have a need for an external alternator regulation, you should check out the Wakespeed WS500 units. They have anything and everything you could possibly think of. Alternator temp sensor, battery temp sensor. Voltage sensors on the alternator, Current sensors, voltage on the battery side... it is all taken into the account when regulating the alternator. And it is all fully customizable to any spec you wish... in my case I am limiting the temp at the sensor to 140 degrees at the sensor, which gives me plenty of wiggle room for any other variables.

              • Kwood
                Kwood commented
                Editing a comment
                Wakespeed is way above my economic status!

              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                Yeah, to be honest, if you're looking at external regulation between 2 motors and alternators charging the same bank... it's actually cheaper than Balmar ones. The Balmars are $250 per controller, plus another $400 for the "central" unit... plus a ton of time trying to figure out how to connect them all to work. The wakespeeds are networked via standard ethernet cable, so they communicate between each other and produce the proper output all the time.

              #10
              If money is not a barrier get one of these large case alternators. There are designed for continuous operation http://www.prestolite.com/literature...ator_Flyer.pdf
              But Leece Neville make other large case alternators almost as good. Lots available used at truck and equipment wreckers and bargain prices compared to new. Fire and truck versions both have 12 Diodes. Extra 6 diodes are bolted on the back. Easy to tell the difference between the 160 - 190 amp and 200 - 320 amp versions.
              These are proven design in production since 1960's. Built like tank. Everything is over sized designed to be taken apart and fixed. Not a throw away like most stuff made today..
              Just make sure tag says it's Leece Neville and not a clone... Even the clones are OK! Truck version is not certified for 212 F. Other than different fan and winding insulation coating there identical.
              They are easy to convert to external regulation all that is needed is 3 x 4 x 1/8 inch steel or aluminum plate 2 studs and 4 insulating washers. To convert back to internal is easy, just swap the plate out for internal regulator. Done in 10 minutes.
              These can be hot rodded to 400 to 500 amps. But suffer same fate as small case hot rodded alternators
              Rod
              1991 4387
              Sidney, BC

              Comment


              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                I'll be honest, I didn't think about looking at the used suppliers. I'll see what the local junk yards have for the proper J180 mount alternators and see if I can have those converted while I still keep mine on the boat for cruising until the modifications area ready. You've given me a great idea my friend

              #11
              I suggest you take it off and have it done at an alternator shop, also I do not believe the stock alternator is 160amp as you stated. We swapped our out years ago for the housebank and went to larger 150 amp and balmar charge regular. The alternator shop dialed in the charge rates so we would not over heat the alternator. I burned up the first one by not doing this

              As as side note I just did this on our sprinter van removed agm and installed 2 battle born lifePO4 and used a sterling dc to dc charger which is another method to charge lithium, and on that device it charges for 20 mins and stops for 10 I believe and then starts charging again...lithium can take huge charges at once but the alternators even the 200 amp on the van is not designed to put that out for long periods without overheating. Just sharing what I learned from that world.

              I plan on doing this on boat early next year once I see how van works out.
              Mark
              USCG OUPV
              1990 4588
              Carlsbad, CA

              Comment


              • Pcpete
                Pcpete commented
                Editing a comment
                I think the 150amp is total for both Densos.

              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                80Amp output at 13.6V or something like that per alternator... so yeah... 160ish!

              #12
              ***Have not tried this***
              Believe our Denso's can be fooled to operate with external regulator without internal modifications.
              Yellow wire is field curent from oil pressure switch.
              Red is sense wire from batteries for voltage regulation.
              If the red wire is eliminated from circuit, then internal regulator is going to command maximum field excitation.
              So connecting external regulator to yellow alternator input elimimating oil pressure switch,
              should allow external regulator to control alternator output.
              Unless red wire supplies power for regulator logic...
              ***Have not tried this***
              Rod
              1991 4387
              Sidney, BC

              Comment


              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                That is interesting... I was thinking something similar to this but I am unsure. The problem is that not many people deal with alternator conversions. I mean most people just say "Toss a new one in" and to be honest I really don't want to or need to do that. Just want to get the existing alternators to provide some juice if needed.

                I'll do more digging and find out.

              #13
              Roddy I decided to pick up two Leece Neville 160Amp alienators and convert them to external regulation. I have some 2AWG wire I'll use to rewire the positive... The ground is monstrous for the starter so I'm safe there. I think the whole conversion of costing me under $500 which would be about the same as the conversion of the existing ones but I get bigger and stronger alternators.

              Should be fun.
              Ships n Giggles
              1993 Bayliner 4388
              MMSI# 367412710
              Day Island Yacht Club
              Commodore

              Comment


              • Kwood
                Kwood commented
                Editing a comment
                I thought the Wakespeed alone is arounf $500?

              • Shipsngiggles
                Shipsngiggles commented
                Editing a comment
                Not counting the Wakespeed... that is something that shall not be mentioned... LOL

                The wakespeed setup with battery temp senson and all the goodies is about $650 a piece. The thing I like about the wakespeed is that it communicates via an RJ45 Cat5 cable and I can take the J1939 PGNs and display them on my chartploter. So at any given time I can tell my house battery voltage, charge voltage, charge/discharge amp, alternator load/temp, battery temp, battery time to full... and a ton of other things that I can't even come up with right now.

                So yeah I think it is worth it. For the LiFePO4 conversion the 1,200Ah battery bank was $4,000, wakespeed package was $1,400 and the alternator with the new wiring and few other things was about $500... Overall about $6K into a project that would have cost me $15,000 if I had done it conventionally through a dealer and I wouldn't have nearly the functionality I have now.

              #14
              How many cells do you have in parallel to make up 1200AH, or are you wired for 2 separate 600amp batteries?
              Irony
              1989 Bayliner 4588 - EH700TI
              Portsmouth, NH

              Comment


                #15
                Click image for larger version

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                I have 2 of these in parallel. Personally, I have a reservation of doing more than 2 LiFePO4 batteries without a smart internal BMS that communicates over a CAN network or an external BMS to level load the batteries properly. If I was doing this all over again, I would have done 4 300Ah batteries with a smart BMS and 0.5C charge/discharge rate. The cost would have been the same but I would have more control over the system.
                Attached Files
                Ships n Giggles
                1993 Bayliner 4388
                MMSI# 367412710
                Day Island Yacht Club
                Commodore

                Comment

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