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triping shore power with new GFI systems

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    triping shore power with new GFI systems

    A lot of marinas are putting in new GFI shore power to public docks. I have a guy coming out today to see if he can find the neutral ground problem. any suggestions. All I know is that most marinas will be going this way soon.
    1993 43.88 bayliner motoryatch

    #2
    There are a few thread already about this. You might want to see about checking them out.
    Future 4788 Owner
    Charleston, S.C.

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      #3
      Originally posted by joe View Post
      A lot of marinas are putting in new GFI shore power to public docks. I have a guy coming out today to see if he can find the neutral ground problem. any suggestions. All I know is that most marinas will be going this way soon.
      Most of the culprits I have seen lately have been the Inverter. If you have one; have your technician isolate and turnoff the inverter. In absence of 115V, the inverter electrically combines both neutral and ground (white and green). Sportscar is right - there are threads on the site with amplifying information beyond the inverter.
      MY 3988
      M/V MMPOWRD
      Poulsbo, WA

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        #4
        The neutrals need to be set up on a sub panel the same as the load wires. The green ground wires can all be connected to a common buss. A cheap test tool is a contractor gfi that goes into an extension cord. It blows a 2ma where the marina gfi’s blow at 10ma. They cost about twenty bucks at amazon, Lowe’s, Home Depot.
        P/C Pete
        Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
        1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
        Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
        1980 Encounter Sunbridge "Misty Blue" (Sold)
        MMSI 367770440
        1972 Chevrolet Nova Frame off Resto-mod in the garage
        Boating on the Salish Sea since 1948

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          #5
          Ours was both our inverter and old onan gen set...for what that is worth
          Mark
          USCG OUPV
          1990 4588
          Carlsbad, CA

          Comment


            #6
            After being sue I wasn’t grounding into the water or something like that, I figured out my tripping issue was the inverter. As I didn’t want to spend a ton on a new inverter or rewiring things, I set up an isolation transformer that is use if necessary. It’s fairly small, though it is heavy. It wasn’t too expensive and works great.

            ~BJ
            OMEGA
            5788
            BJ
            OMEGA
            5788

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              #7
              I installed isolation transformers on the incoming connections. Zero problems since install. Bought Charles brand. They do make a slight hum so I suggest installing where you won’t hear them.
              2000 4788 w Cummins 370's, underhulls, swim step hull extension
              12' Rendova center console with 40HP Yamaha
              MV Kia Orana
              Currently Alameda CA

              Comment


                #8
                Like Woodsea I installed two Charles isolation transformers for shore power 1 and 3.

                I disabled shore power #2 and made panel #2 a dedicated inverter panel.

                On my boat the original inverter installation was hot side only, leaving the neutrals as originally connected.

                With no AC input to the inverter, it bonds neutral to ground, which caused the shore power GFI to trip since when AC is applied the GFI trips faster than the inver releases the ground-neutral bond.

                In my case isolation transformers made sense to solve this issue, plus any future issues I might encounter down the road.

                KEVIN SANDERS
                4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA

                Comment


                  #9
                  Yeah it's my experience that two GFI's don't play nice on the same power.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Originally posted by ksanders View Post
                    Like Woodsea I installed two Charles isolation transformers for shore power 1 and 3.

                    I disabled shore power #2 and made panel #2 a dedicated inverter panel.

                    On my boat the original inverter installation was hot side only, leaving the neutrals as originally connected.

                    With no AC input to the inverter, it bonds neutral to ground, which caused the shore power GFI to trip since when AC is applied the GFI trips faster than the inver releases the ground-neutral bond.

                    In my case isolation transformers made sense to solve this issue, plus any future issues I might encounter down the road.
                    I wonder if it would be possible to affect/modify the neutral/gnd relay on the inverter so that neutral-to-gnd bonding occurs ONLY if (a) Shore AC is OFF and (b) Inverter switch is ON? This will allow us to leave our boats connected to shore power and inverter in OFF state and not trip the shore breaker is there is a shore power hickup? I would think that some of us would be capable of modifying the internal inverter wiring to achieve this if only we had the internal circuit diagram. For example, I have a Victron Digital MuliPlus inverter/charger but I don't have its internal circuit diagram. Does any one know where we might find such a diagram.?
                    Retired, computer expert / executive
                    Bayliner 285 Cruiser / Mercruiser QSD 4.2L 320 HP Diesel
                    Live in the Bay Area, CA, USA, boat in Turkey
                    D-Marin @ Turgutreis in Bodrum/Turkey
                    bdervisoglu8@gmail.com
                    bulent@pacbell.net

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                      #11
                      Monte, the ways to beat the inverter neutral circuit causing a problem is 1) create a sub panel, a terminal block actually, to separate the inverter circuit neutrals from the shore power only appliances like the hot water heater or 2) find a faster switch so the inverter can realize shore power is available. This is about milliseconds, but with the lower ground fault allowance plus the time decrease, most units don’t keep up. Also, very often the incoming ac neutral wire is connected directly to the outgoing wire rather than being run through the inverter. It’s kinda like throwing the instructions away, installing the unit in a way the seems like it’s reasonable then going WTF! when it doesn’t perform all the time. Go figure.
                      P/C Pete
                      Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
                      1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
                      Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
                      1980 Encounter Sunbridge "Misty Blue" (Sold)
                      MMSI 367770440
                      1972 Chevrolet Nova Frame off Resto-mod in the garage
                      Boating on the Salish Sea since 1948

                      Comment


                        #12
                        Is there a supper guru who knows and works on these problems? I have a outback inverter charger and have had a outback installer out who cant seem to figure it out? Had a ship wright electrician out cant seem to figure it out? I really don't want a isolation transformers seems like more weight more room taken and more equipment to fail, kind of like a brandade not a fix. There has to be that guy who knows his marine electrical in and out. Help needed.
                        1993 43.88 bayliner motoryatch

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                          #13
                          Matt and I worked our way through this on my boat when the problem first popped up. You are going to find that all of the neutral wires are connected to a common buss. Because of the ABYC rule change regarding gfi and the possibility of electrical shock drowning, mainly a fresh water issue, the number of milliamperes and nanoseconds allowed were greatly reduced. Your inverter, when Shore power isn’t energized, is in a ground fault configuration. When the shore power is energized, the inverter runs some self diagnostics then opens the ground fault. The problem is it takes longer that the time allowed with the new system.
                          So that’s the wtf is going on. Matt and I discovered two main issues. The first being that the neutrals were not connected to the inverter. The incoming from SP white wire was connected directly to the outgoing panel wire. I separated the wires and wired the to have the power go through the inverter as the instructions say. It’s kinda buried... Next, it was on to the distribution panel. We identified all of the neutral wires that were for the inverter. I installed two short busses. One for sp circuits the other for the inverter,
                          Matt is you guy.

                          https://www.petrelmarine.com/
                          mattnetting@petrelmarine.com
                          P/C Pete
                          Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
                          1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
                          Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
                          1980 Encounter Sunbridge "Misty Blue" (Sold)
                          MMSI 367770440
                          1972 Chevrolet Nova Frame off Resto-mod in the garage
                          Boating on the Salish Sea since 1948

                          Comment


                            #14
                            im calling him as I type thank you.
                            1993 43.88 bayliner motoryatch

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Originally posted by Pcpete View Post
                              ... The incoming from SP white wire was connected directly to the outgoing panel wire. I separated the wires and wired the to have the power go through the inverter as the instructions say. It’s kinda buried... Next, it was on to the distribution panel. We identified all of the neutral wires that were for the inverter. I installed two short busses. One for sp circuits the other for the inverter,
                              ....
                              Do you have a wiring diagram or schematic of what you did?
                              1999 3788, Cummins 270 "Freedom"
                              2013 Boston Whaler 130 SS
                              Anacortes, WA

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