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    #16
    "On the EH series I just pull the entire pump - back the belt tightening bolt off like 15 turns and then pull the 4 bolts and work on the bench."

    I've not had to completely remove the pump from the engine bay yet, but still ridiculous that you have to remove it from the mount to change such a simple piece. That you have to undo half of it from down inside, and the rest from up top, kind of sucks.. Thankfully not the case for the other engine. lol..

    Comment


      #17
      Old post on some differences...


      Bayliner 45 vs 47

      There were changes made in each model year but these are some of the general differences between the mid 80's 45 and the mid 90's 47 Bayliners.

      45 has:
      - aluminum holding tank below pilot stairs
      - aluminum water tanks
      - split A/C units port of port engine
      - batteries stb of stb engine
      - prop pockets
      - a decent davit
      - wood base flybridge seats
      - wood core in flybridge and elsewhere
      - wood veneer on port and stb overhangs
      - less space pilot and saloon
      - usually gensets have no shield
      - arch rear facing and needs attention
      - teak cap on rails
      - more storage
      - “V” struts
      - 1-1/2 “ shafts
      - watch for dry turbo’s early years
      - neat shaft pockets inside to collect water

      47 has:
      - no prop pockets
      - 2" shafts
      - less storage
      - A/C units are under seats in pilot and master
      - batteries at rear of engines
      - there is a bulkhead door
      - most gensets have shield
      - molded seating on flybridge
      - arch is forward and braced
      - decking is foam core
      - more robust davit
      - extra space in saloon and pilothouse
      - less space in mid stateroom
      - more useable space on flybridge
      - 95' and down still has all the teak
      - most water leaks were corrected

      Engine options:
      You will find that either Hino engine will provide many years of service if they are not overloaded and reasonably maintained. Get good surveys on the boat and the engines and you will be in good shape to assess your future plans. Disclaimer is that we are not diesel technicians nor in the marine business.
      The EH700 series Hino is a bit more robust then the WO6 series but either are more than capable when utilized at their respective ratings. Our experience is that they are well above average in this sub 6.5 litre diesel class for most normal usage. The EH700 series shares no parts with the newer WO6 series engines but the 175 and 220 EH share parts as does the 250 and 310 WO6.

      The EH700 (229 hp, 6.44 L) was based on an early 1980's stationary industrial engine for pumping, electrical generation, and similar applications. It was utilized as a non turbo in 122 hp continuous and 142 hp intermittent ratings in many applications when my husband (Ron) first saw them in Shimodate Japan in 1979-1981. The marine versions of 175 and 220 hp (turbo & inter-cooled) have shown good service life, low fuel use, and better than average serviceability, with reasonable maintenance applied. The 175 and 220 are mostly the same except for the turbo, inter-cooler, and fuel load applied. The earlier 220's with dry turbo’s can have more problems as well as the regular issues with 2 piece risers, mani-coolers, trans coolers, and lack of general service.

      The WO6 D-Ti-II (310 hp, 5.76 L) is still a very robust engine that has a bit more efficiency owing to the extra dozen years of engineering development but should not make a large difference in these applications. The 250 hp version has a number of differences other then fuel load including oiling, sparges, pistons, etc. Running at 60% or so of max hp (not rpm’s) these engines will have a life exceeding that of the boat if maintained.. We have found these to be slightly easier to service but again the difference is not large.



      Northport NY

      Comment


        #18
        Another old post of ours...

        Bayliner 45 - 47 significant list


        This is a partial list of the significant improvements on the Bayliner 47 Pilothouse compared to its 45 Pilothouse predecessor. For these reasons we determined it was well worth the time, money, and effort to move from our Bayliner 4588 to a 4788 Pilothouse. This is only a partial list and does not include anything deemed insignificant such as carpets, wall treatments, furniture color selection or the like.

        Bayliner 45 – produced 1984 to 1993

        Bayliner 47 – produced 1994 to 2002 (then as Meridian for another few years)

        Significant advantages of the 4788:
        • Fwd deck construction (C)
        • Boat deck C
        • Arch C
        • Boat deck side overhangs C
        • Davit C and real capacity
        • Flybridge furniture C
        • Water tanks C
        • Holding tank C and location access
        • Hot water heater C and locations
        • Larger areas include: salon, fly bridge, Pilot, Galley, & Fwd stateroom
        • Stateroom floor layout
        • Saloon and Pilothouse layout much more useable
        • Pilothouse floor has no ‘tripping’ points
        • A/C locations and serviceability/life
        • Headroom in Pilothouse , salon, & under arch
        • AC and DC electrical panels C and usefulness
        • Battery locations
        • Washer/dryer access and usability
        • Improved power plant design and access
        • Simplified fuel and lube oil changes
        • Improved pre-heat systems on mains
        • Higher cruise speed(s)
        • Slight fuel economy increase
        • Lack of side deck cap wood, cockpit cap wood
        • Less bow rise, more stern lift, easier to maneuver
        • Genset location and shield
        • No prop pockets
        • 2” shafts vs 1.5”
        • Transmission capability (800’s)
        • Transmission ratios match “A” & “B”
        • Improved cutlass
        • Larger prop diameter
        • Exhaust outlet location
        • Lazerette added, lower noise as measured
        • Easier to service engines



        The significant items we missed in the 47 that the 45 had:
        • Spate ‘pockets’ at the shaft logs to control water
        • Storage in mid cabin
        • Slightly smaller mid cabin
        Northport NY

        Comment


          #19
          I can share that not all of the items list are accurate above on our 4588, our holding tank was plastic for example. Bayline in 1990 made the boat in two factories, our came the east coast factory (I think it was north carolina) and has difference then many post from PNW. We move ours when purchased to West coast. Just sharing as these re generalization that may or not may not apply to a specific boat.
          Mark
          USCG OUPV
          1990 4588
          Carlsbad, CA

          Comment


            #20
            Originally posted by Destiny_4588 View Post
            I can share that not all of the items list are accurate above on our 4588, our holding tank was plastic for example. Bayline in 1990 made the boat in two factories, our came the east coast factory (I think it was north carolina) and has difference then many post from PNW. We move ours when purchased to West coast. Just sharing as these re generalization that may or not may not apply to a specific boat.
            A very good point.
            Do you see any other variations in the list?
            Northport NY

            Comment


            • Destiny_4588
              Destiny_4588 commented
              Editing a comment
              yes, our original onan gen set was 12.5kw and had sound shield, we do have 3 separate AC units (Pillot house, Salon/rear stateroom, and master and 2nd stateroom. other items that are more opinion in nature I will avoid (ie exhaust location is better, and layout is better, etc as personally we prefer our layout in master stateroom and saloon as well as all the storage, which is why we did not move to a 47 for example.
              Anyways, to each his or her own. I think the list should be factual statement vs. opinion as I do not believe everyone see it the same way. Again we like our teak cap rails ....but other may not. We like the dark mahogany cabinets, others may not. I also believe the hino engines are cheaper to maintain and we have not had issue getting parts from truck dealers knock on wood and/or marine parts supply or North Harbor Diesel.
              Anyways, I think it boils down to what each person us using the boat for, what they can afford and what they can upgrade in there budget to get the dream setup that is right for them

            #21
            Were you the original owner on the boat? Do you have the original purchase doc for the boat?

            1. your 1990 gen set was 12.5kw and had a sound shield - did the dealer add that sound shield?
            2. Were your 3 separate AC units (Pillot house, Salon/rear stateroom, and master and 2nd stateroom. slip units with the compressors in the engine room?
            3. Does your (ie exhaust location have the exhaust going into the slip stream or out the back under the swim step?
            4. layout has the pilothouse with the small 'steps' at each door and entry?
            5. all the storage is better in the 45 size but the 47 has another 2' on the stern where the volume count

            I think the list should be factual statement vs. opinion as I do not believe everyone see it the same way.
            We made the list as factual as possible - we owned a 1986 4588 a 1988 4588 and a 1995 4788 to learn the differences over all those years.



            "Again we like our teak cap rails ....but other may not."
            We liked the look of the cap rails - the resultant problems associated with the 100 or so screws piecing the hull as well as the ability to clean and protect them not so much. Lines for tie ups always affected the teak rails and the stations/cleats etc on top were more difficult to bed correctly.

            "We like the dark mahogany cabinets, others may not"
            There were 3 color available almost every year.

            "I also believe the hino engines are cheaper to maintain and we have not had issue getting parts from truck dealers"
            Our 4788 had Hino engines - WO6 DI II. Since they are a much newer release they are easier to get parts for than the EH700 series.







            Northport NY

            Comment


              #22
              Just a thought about the Cummins. Good engines and I have 2 at the present and have had 4 others. But not in a boat. Personally I believe they try to get to much hp out of the 5,9 block. An RV will use a 8.3 block to get 350 hp. I know of and have read of many failures of the Cummins in a boat. There is a reason for that and it would frighten me thinking about the expense if they were to fail. Maybe its just me but think about how many you have seen on this forum alone. An RV also works hard and there is a reason you don't hear of failures in them. They are very conservative about the hp of these engines. My 40' motorhome with a Freightliner chassis has a Cummins 8.3 and is 350 hp.
              How many Hino engines have been lost on this forum?
              Started boating 1955
              Number of boats owned 32
              Bayliners
              2655
              2755
              2850
              3870 presently owned
              Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

              Comment


                #23
                Doug, Cummins have their marine version of the 8.3 6CTA series since they have been introduced in the 90s...AKA 400C, 420C, 450 Diamond, 480CE, for us recreational boaters, new QSC 8.3 is rated at 600.
                Not cheap...Harbor marine sent me an estimate for a pair of 6CTA 8.3 just under $100,000.
                Joon, Kathy, Jaden & Tristan
                Uniflite 42 AC, DD 671N
                93 3058 sold
                92 2855 (day boat)
                91 Fourwinns 205 (lake boat)
                Longbranch WA
                Life is Good

                Comment


                  #24
                  Dcmb, it's easy to loose a Hino. Just fail to maintain it. Oh, wait! That's true of all mechanical devices. My port engine was rebuilt just prior to my buying the boat because the fisher failed and wasn't discovered in time. This happened to the previous, previous owner and did he have the starboard riser checked? It failed as he was delivering the boat to the new owner who promptly canceled the deal. The riser was replaced and the boat was sold to a guy who replaced the manicoolers with a set of take offs from a fresh water boat. These engines are extremely tough, simple units. Maintenance is the key.
                  P/C Pete
                  Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
                  1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
                  Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
                  1980 Encounter Sunbridge "Misty Blue" (Sold)
                  MMSI 367770440
                  1972 Chevrolet Nova Frame off Resto-mod in the garage
                  Boating on the Salish Sea since 1948

                  Comment


                    #25
                    Hi, Doug. Long time, my friend. I have read of a lot of water ingestion issues, injector issue, and the like, but not on the 5.9L. I don't have a lot of experience (only 5 years now), but I know the blood lines of my 3488/341. They were previously pared with 250 4 cylinder, which was a very bad engine/paring. Kevin's Taz had v-drives and ingestion issues and his 4788 got new engines as part of his repo purchase, I don't remember the reason. The water pumps seem to be a problem. but beyond that, it seems to me that this block is a workhorse. In my size boat, the boat is effortlessly on plane, never seems taxed, even at WOT. The bigger boats ride a lot flatter and push less water than mine. Seems like they are well pared. They used to put 310 hino or 270 hino in the 4788, right? How is that different than a 330HP engine with a big cylinders type engine and boat that is going to run right in it's wheelhouse RPM wise. I bet RV's get harder treatment than our boats do.
                    Tally and Vicki
                    "Wickus" Meridian 341
                    MMSI 338014939

                    Comment


                      #26
                      Originally posted by talman View Post
                      Hi, Doug. Long time, my friend. I have read of a lot of water ingestion issues, injector issue, and the like, but not on the 5.9L. I don't have a lot of experience (only 5 years now), but I know the blood lines of my 3488/341. They were previously pared with 250 4 cylinder, which was a very bad engine/paring. Kevin's Taz had v-drives and ingestion issues and his 4788 got new engines as part of his repo purchase, I don't remember the reason. The water pumps seem to be a problem. but beyond that, it seems to me that this block is a workhorse. In my size boat, the boat is effortlessly on plane, never seems taxed, even at WOT. The bigger boats ride a lot flatter and push less water than mine. Seems like they are well pared. They used to put 310 hino or 270 hino in the 4788, right? How is that different than a 330HP engine with a big cylinders type engine and boat that is going to run right in it's wheelhouse RPM wise. I bet RV's get harder treatment than our boats do.
                      Doug's post is extremely accurate - here is a copy of what I posted in #11 above...

                      Cummins 5.9 - 3 rules you must follow:
                      1. Prop them carefully and always to reach at least WOT +3-5%
                      2. Run them at less than 66% of load (use pyro ,boost, and/or fuel flow gages)
                      3. Maintain them by the book without exception (read shop book and SBMAR site)
                      In return they will give you a long life.

                      "They used to put 310 hino or 270 hino in the 4788, right? How is that different than a 330HP engine with a big cylinders type engine and boat that is going to run right in it's wheelhouse RPM wise."
                      The differences are really large actually - one is an industrial engine designed with extra cooling, oil sparges, greater eutectic pistons, steel piston liners, robust intercoolers and more while the other is designed as a moderate to intermittent use diesel.

                      So over the many years now I have well over a dozen PM's from folks that lost one or more of their Cummins requiring a recon engine. On the Hino's I get PM's wanting to know how to service parts or in the worst cases how to rebuild the engine after the boat has sunk - they were eventually rebuilt in frame on that 38 and the 45 that had those questions. Many BOC members past and present have had their 5.9 Cummins removed an d recons installed.
                      Northport NY

                      Comment


                        #27
                        Originally posted by Ruffryder View Post
                        Doug, Cummins have their marine version of the 8.3 6CTA series since they have been introduced in the 90s...AKA 400C, 420C, 450 Diamond, 480CE, for us recreational boaters, new QSC 8.3 is rated at 600.
                        Not cheap...Harbor marine sent me an estimate for a pair of 6CTA 8.3 just under $100,000.
                        Point I was trying to make is they don't use them. And I think they should if they want that much hp.
                        Started boating 1955
                        Number of boats owned 32
                        Bayliners
                        2655
                        2755
                        2850
                        3870 presently owned
                        Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

                        Comment


                          #28
                          Originally posted by dmcb View Post

                          Point I was trying to make is they don't use them. And I think they should if they want that much hp.
                          Hello Doug,

                          I have worked on a few boats with Cummins 8.3 installed and I agree with you they are a great match.
                          These were not in Bayliners but in the lager Sea Rays and others where the 6C shined.
                          They still had the issues with the intercoolers and a few problems with the banjo bolts on the lower turbo coolant lines but those were easily handled.
                          SBMAR has some blurbs about how to handle the few minor issues.
                          Certainly the 8.3 is very robust in the marine installations that I have seen
                          Northport NY

                          Comment


                            #29
                            Originally posted by talman View Post
                            Hi, Doug. Long time, my friend. I have read of a lot of water ingestion issues, injector issue, and the like, but not on the 5.9L. I don't have a lot of experience (only 5 years now), but I know the blood lines of my 3488/341. They were previously pared with 250 4 cylinder, which was a very bad engine/paring. Kevin's Taz had v-drives and ingestion issues and his 4788 got new engines as part of his repo purchase, I don't remember the reason. The water pumps seem to be a problem. but beyond that, it seems to me that this block is a workhorse. In my size boat, the boat is effortlessly on plane, never seems taxed, even at WOT. The bigger boats ride a lot flatter and push less water than mine. Seems like they are well pared. They used to put 310 hino or 270 hino in the 4788, right? How is that different than a 330HP engine with a big cylinders type engine and boat that is going to run right in it's wheelhouse RPM wise. I bet RV's get harder treatment than our boats do.
                            My 4788 had one engine with high blowby at 960 hours. Suspected overpropping, as it had the factory 24” pitch props. I preemptivly repowered both sides.

                            I am now running a pair of 21” pitch props and have really good EGT, and WOT fully loaded

                            The challenge with the 5.9 at 330 HP (and probably 370 as well) is that they were overpropped from the factory by most boat manufacturers in order to get the cruise speeds a hard working, limited time off boat demographic wanted to see.

                            Couple that with the common practice and recommendation back then of running the engines for extended periods at -200 from rated WOT, and you could fund yourself effectivly running right near WOT for much of the engines life. There were and continue to be many 1000 hour failures.

                            This was not just a Cummins issue though. Reading David Pascoe’s articles reveals that he saw the same shortened lifespan with the 6-71 engine and the Yanmars and other what he called “high speed speed diesels”.

                            KEVIN SANDERS
                            4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA

                            Comment


                              #30
                              A pair of 300 hp Perkins marine engines would be a good choice for most Bayliners 38' and up.
                              These engines are very reliable and very low maintenance and manufactured in the US.
                              Only difference between the 300 hp and the 270 hp is the injectors.
                              Tight in a 38' but will fit with a down angle transmission.
                              I re-powered a 3870 with a pair of these, the boat tested 27 knots and the props were pitched up after the test run.
                              Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

                              Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
                              Twin 350 GM power
                              Located in Seward, AK
                              Retired marine surveyor

                              Comment

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