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    Condition is everything but.....

    I was out last week on a lark looking at boats.

    One was a limited production model that needed some work. Boat has nice lines and checks the box for everything that the Mrs. wants. Lots of cool features throughout. Price for size of boat is a fair deal but honestly to fix all the little things that haven't held up over 20yrs is a silly amount of time, some skilled trades required, and I don't think there aren't many people that will take on a 45-50' boat and deal with it and for the math to pencil out probably still needs to come off the asking price 40% or so.

    We then walked through 2 30yr old 4588's while a lot of the stuff on these isn't nearly as nice honestly but the cabinets and doors all still fit and swing cleanly. The production numbers make it so there are always more than a few on on the market to help set a price point and easy to compete with for features/condition. The 4588 checks most of our boxes but is slower than our desired cruise and honestly if I am going to go with a Bayliner/US Marine it will be a Cummins Powered version. (4788/490, Maxum 46, Meridian 411 are the prime contenders)

    I know I will probably buy something that needs work because that is how I roll. My 3888 was in sad shape when we bought it. I also am likely to hang onto this next one for a very long time, I want to retire fairly young and the 45-50' range is great for our cruising preferences so going bigger is unlikely. Honestly most boats being built today even in that range don't have the provisions to be out for a month or so. (Martimo 48 is the new boat exception but knowing my finances I am not willing to sacrifice that much)

    I am really wondering how much value you think is in your Bayliner is retained by numbers of comps in the market v. the durability that they seem to have gotten out of them (acknowledging that they aren't offshore sport fishers intended to go out long distances offshore over and over chasing fish)?
    1989 3888
    Nobody gets out alive.

    #2
    18 months ago when we were looking at boats the condition verses asking price made no sense at all. Some were very proud of their electronics but, when I really looked, there were lots of things that needed attention, like the blackwater system. I found the boat we bought almost by accident. It was far from perfect but has good bones. It has most of the features I want, and there are things I want to change or update for my own satisfaction. The electronics are 1988 but work well for my needs. I don't care about overlaying radar on my GPS, but as I get to that, it'll probably be standard.
    You are wise looking at a boat and saying future value minus repairs and renovation is the purchase value. Are you going to break even on it? No. But that's part of ownership. I would give the boat away before I'd let it fall into disrepair. When I see machinery left to rot all I want to do is it make it new again. Such a character flaw.
    P/C Pete
    Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
    1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
    Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
    1980 Encounter Sunbridge "Misty Blue" (Sold)
    MMSI 367770440
    1972 Chevrolet Nova Frame off Resto-mod in the garage
    Boating on the Salish Sea since 1948

    Comment


      #3
      Originally posted by Pcpete View Post
      . I would give the boat away before I'd let it fall into disrepair. When I see machinery left to rot all I want to do is it make it new again. Such a character flaw.
      I strongly agree....



      NU LIBERTE'
      Salem, OR

      1989 Bayliner 2556 Convertible
      5.7 OMC Cobra - 15.5x11 prop
      N2K equipped throughout..
      2014 Ram 3500 crew cab, 6.7 Cummins
      2007 M-3705 SLC weekend warrior, 5th wheel
      '04 Polaris Sportsman 700 -- '05 Polaris Sportsman 500 HO
      Heavy Equipment Repair and Specialty Welding

      Comment


        #4
        KWB,
        Within these forum walls I seem to recall reading the many differences between the 45 and 47. IIRC there were some significant structural pluses to the 47 in addition to the availability of the Cummins engines and the absence of the exterior teak on later 47’s. The 47’s are newer and more desirable hence more expensive, as you already know.
        Jim Gandee
        1989 3888
        Hino 175's
        Fire Escape
        Fyrflyer@ca.rr.com

        Comment


          #5
          The 45 is a fine boat. Like anything that is built over time the 47 incorporates advances in manufacturing and materials. Practice makes perfect as the saying goes.

          The big selling point for me of the 47 was the non balsa cored decks. I know the 45 is not known for issues, but it was a scary point for me.

          As far as engines goes, the cummins seems to be desirable but I have found that they are not a really tough engine if abused. The Hino is in my opinion as a bystander a bit tougher engine.

          I have a later 4788, 2001 and actually perfer the more teak interiors of the earlier models FWIW.

          To answer your original question i think the Bayliners are very highly sought after in the PACNW, and for good reason. As far as retained value and or asking/selling numbers I think it is highly individualistic. and having bought and refit a neglected boat i can tell you for certain that the best “value” is to buy the best maintained boat on the market, and be happy paying a premium for it.

          KEVIN SANDERS
          4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA

          Comment


          • SprinterX
            SprinterX commented
            Editing a comment
            " I think it is highly individualistic. and having bought and refit a neglected boat i can tell you for certain that the best “value” is to buy the best maintained boat on the market, and be happy paying a premium for it."

            I think that's some good advise ksanders.

          #6
          The decks are a PITA to repair but well within my skills and frankly foam can have delamination issues as well if it gets wet and then has a freeze cycle so it is still all about sealing penetrations.

          The hino is a fine engine but looking forward 25+yrs from now the Cummins will have had so many more installed that part availability will be better. I don't like the exterior teak and the best case for the 4588 is 250hp.

          As long as I have to work I really want to be 16kn capable for a fast end of cruise. We could probably work with the 4588 but by the end of my boating career it would be 60yrs old. Shaving 10 or more years off that will make some difference in if I can make this the last one. Changing boats is expensive. Expensive means more working, more work counters the retire young strategy.
          1989 3888
          Nobody gets out alive.

          Comment


            #7
            Originally posted by kwb View Post
            I am really wondering how much value you think is in your Bayliner is retained by numbers of comps in the market v. the durability that they seem to have gotten out of them (acknowledging that they aren't offshore sport fishers intended to go out long distances offshore over and over chasing fish)?
            KWB, something to think about- if you're not in a hurry, the Baltimore area seems to prefer the kinds of boat described in the quote. That means Bayliners are used for not much more than condos so very low hours- ours had 300 hrs on a 2001 plus the water is brackish. I just finished servicing the aftercoolers and heat exchangers on ours and they were clean as a whistle and had never been done. If I were after a boat that size I'd think about taking it down the intercoastal and putting it on a ship to bring it west. I'd avoid the southeast coast- gelcoat is usually toasted, and watch for storm damage, some of the northern boats have been relocated for sale.
            1988- 3288, 1994- 3288, now Soul Asset: 2001- 3788 w/330s

            Comment


              #8
              Originally posted by kwb View Post
              The decks are a PITA to repair but well within my skills and frankly foam can have delamination issues as well if it gets wet and then has a freeze cycle so it is still all about sealing penetrations.

              The hino is a fine engine but looking forward 25+yrs from now the Cummins will have had so many more installed that part availability will be better. I don't like the exterior teak and the best case for the 4588 is 250hp.

              As long as I have to work I really want to be 16kn capable for a fast end of cruise. We could probably work with the 4588 but by the end of my boating career it would be 60yrs old. Shaving 10 or more years off that will make some difference in if I can make this the last one. Changing boats is expensive. Expensive means more working, more work counters the retire young strategy.
              Both of our 45's had a high cruise of 15 knots and each could get near but never quite reach 20 kts WOT. (220's)
              The 47 had a high cruise of 17 knots and could reach over 22 knots.(310's)
              The decks and construction of the 47 was much more desirable due to the coring but there are many places that applied - not just the foredeck.
              I have owned visited and worked on many larger Bayliners and I do not share your thoughts that the coring changes are not a big deal - I believe they are a big deal in our experiences. My thoughts on the Cummins and Hino's are well known so no need to beat that to death. I will try and find an old post on the differences between the 45 and 47.
              In general terms you are not likely to find a large boat (45-55') that requires anywhere near the lower funds to acquire and maintain as these Bayliners..
              Good luck with your search
              Northport NY

              Comment


                #9
                Seems the only parts you can't really get reliably for the hino's are the marinized pieces. Otherwise, just order from the truck suppliers. Marine suppliers wanted $5-700 for an engine coolant pump. Truck suppliers have them under $200.. same scenario with many of the other pieces. Ceramic coat the mani-coolers and elbows.. pretty much good for life. I've heard Hino's have far fewer issues than the cummins.. I'm sure Cummins were adopted due to price points.

                Comment


                • smitty477
                  smitty477 commented
                  Editing a comment
                  You can also have new seals and bearings installed in those pumps at a good pump shop - save as a spare or swap when convenient.

                #10
                Originally posted by Swimmster View Post
                Seems the only parts you can't really get reliably for the hino's are the marinized pieces. Otherwise, just order from the truck suppliers. Marine suppliers wanted $5-700 for an engine coolant pump. Truck suppliers have them under $200.. same scenario with many of the other pieces. Ceramic coat the mani-coolers and elbows.. pretty much good for life. I've heard Hino's have far fewer issues than the cummins.. I'm sure Cummins were adopted due to price points.
                A gentleman that used to work as an engineer and engineering manager at Bayliner worked for me for a number of years. He told me that the adoption of Cummins was done mainly to lower costs, but it was also done because Cummins could better keep up with the expected production rates . He was sad to see the change .
                1999 3788, Cummins 270 "Freedom"
                2013 Boston Whaler 130 SS
                Anacortes, WA

                Comment


                  #11
                  1995- 1996 It was definitely price point also affected by the trade value of the dollar at that time.
                  I have had Cummins in my pickup - fine in that capacity.
                  Cummins 5.9 is not a great application for a 30,000# plus boat.
                  The 8.3 is an entirely different story but to large for the engine spaces.

                  How does one feel about a company that makes a large investment and profit from remanufacturing an engine that has a lower MTBF?
                  Would I buy a car where the manufacturer set up a large reman operation/system for its engine?

                  Cummins 5.9 - 3 rules you must follow:
                  1. Prop them carefully and always to reach at least WOT +3-5%
                  2. Run them at less than 66% of load (use pyro ,boost, and/or fuel flow gages)
                  3. Maintain them by the book without exception (read shop book and SBMAR site)
                  In return they will give you a long life.
                  Northport NY

                  Comment


                    #12
                    One other issue I’ve run up against regarding my Hino’s (which have been ultra reliable) is finding marine diesel mechanics who are familiar with them. In the PNW that probably isn’t a problem but here in SoCal Cummins service technicians are a dime a dozen, Hino tech’s not so much.
                    Jim Gandee
                    1989 3888
                    Hino 175's
                    Fire Escape
                    Fyrflyer@ca.rr.com

                    Comment


                    • smitty477
                      smitty477 commented
                      Editing a comment
                      There are many Hino trucks running around with those same engines perhaps try that - just today I see two Hino trucks at my place of work (one food delivery / one tow truck).
                      Earl is out there now as well - cannot do better than that.
                      I do find the Hino really similar to any number of diesels I have had as well - all these engines are more alike then they are different.

                    #13
                    Like Smitty said... there's not much to rocket science about these things.. Diesel is a diesel.. they all have pistons, cranks, injection pumps, etc etc.. The factory service manuals are out there for specs, etc.. and they really are not hard to work on, with exception to the outward facing sides.. lol.. Oh.. and the terrible design of where the raw water pump is mounted.. Working on that still.. Hopefully I can get something in the works before Hino's are long gone.. lol.. Trying to get time to get a CNC mill machine back up and running after a 12 yr storage stint. Got a possible relocation bracket to move the port pump to the starboard side (inside) of the engine.. as well as raise them up to expose the rear covers... Make changing impellers easy like the rest of them.. lol..

                    Comment


                      #14
                      "Oh.. and the terrible design of where the raw water pump is mounted."
                      Somewhat true on the EH700 - not the newer WO6 series.

                      On the EH series I just pull the entire pump - back the belt tightening bolt off like 15 turns and then pull the 4 bolts and work on the bench.
                      Northport NY

                      Comment


                        #15
                        Originally posted by ksanders View Post

                        As far as engines goes, the cummins seems to be desirable but I have found that they are not a really tough engine if abused. The Hino is in my opinion as a bystander a bit tougher engine.
                        I think you have to consider which CPL the engine is. Some of them are rated medium continuos duty and others recreational duty.
                        Tony Bacon,
                        Washougal, WA
                        Caspian
                        1997 3788 Twin Cummins 250hp

                        Comment

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