Hino Antifreeze Change

[tgotch]

I am looking at a 4588 to purchase. The current owner stated he has not changed the antifreeze in over 10 years. It is a freshwater boat.

I thought Hino recommended every 6 months (at least annually). I plan on getting an engine survey (if it progresses that far)

Any concerns with this?

[Mr._Darcy]

I know you have different Hino engines than Mr. Darcy, but North Harbor Diesel service manager told me every two years to service heat exchangers and put in new anti-freeze.

Greg

[smitty477]

"Any concerns with this?"

Yes - potential corrosion, pitting and mud buildup in the cooling tubes that may require larger costs and time.

Question for you - if they did not maintain the simple coolant system what else may have been ignored?

[Pcpete]

X2 with Smitty477.

[Nikko]

X3 with Smitty477.

New A/F every 2 years is the plan my boat's been on since 1997. When I puled the tube bundles out of the manicoolers two years ago, they were like new. Considering the manicoolers are THE most expensive thing bolted to the side of your engines (if you can even get them anymore) , I'd be pretty leery of a maintenance program that did not include them - and obviously the owner of the vessel you're looking at did not subscribe to this.. Big yellow flag....

[tgotch]

What is worst case scenario? The boat has been sitting in indoor storage for 2 years. Owned by retired guy, who is too old to use it. Price is low - should be able to do repairs (if needed)

Nikko - What do you mean by - might not be able to get manicoolers any longer?

[smitty477]

"What is worst case scenario? The boat has been sitting in indoor storage for 2 years. Owned by retired guy, who is too old to use it. Price is low - should be able to do repairs (if needed)"

You only asked about coolant so the worst case scenario is likely in the area of $8,000 for two manicoolers if you catch the issue before it affects the engines pistons and if you do the work yourself.

Better than my wild a__ guess better to call Earl and get some ideas on costs before you buy the boat

Here is a cut and past of a real old post I made on manicoolers.....

Hino Manicoolers

There have been numerous posts about the Hino manicoolers as of late and it appears that more information would assist owners of what to expect with these assemblies. Although the Hino engines have a unique part number for their assemblies these principles do apply to a range of similar marine manicooler engines other the Hino. In the presentation of some of these thoughts some minor liberties are being taken in analogies as well as some exaggerations in order to make a point clearer - the intention is not to mislead. Please accept this information for any value as it was intended.

Enhancing Manicooler life - Well this is always a great idea with any mechanical device and can be especially valuable in the area of heavily loaded and expensive marine parts. While it is both admirable and prudent to take steps such as 'ceramic coating' of manicoolers this is to be considered 'extra credit' in the manicooler book of maintenance. Extra credit is the + 5 to 10 points you can get on a test after the basic 100 point score is added up. So of course this is a great thing to do but only if you have already taken care of the core maintenance items for your engines which constitute the base of your extra work.

A place to start - Often people ask 'how long will these manicoolers last' and then we get a bunch of replies most of which are correct to a certain degree but lack information most often due to the way the question is asked. So let's answer this question based upon a different set of given parameters as a starting point for comparison - 'How long will a manicooler last if it is filled with a perfect mix of antifreeze and DI water, subjected to a constant room temperature of 65 Degrees F only, and sealed inside box?

Well that answer would likely be something like this - "in the range of millions of years".

But this answer has no real value to us as we utilize our boats in varied ways and in wildly varying environments. We could begin to then discuss each and every one of these variations as a method to determine a lifespan - but that would also be very specific to each variable chosen and have limited use for us. Alternately one of the soft 'tools' we used to use when engineering new systems was an analysis tool that would basically ask " how can we most easily make this part fail?". That tool was called a force field analysis and after it was reasonably completed by the team we could gather up the best methods to force the part to fail, prioritize them, and then figure out the best ways to combat those failure mechanisms.

How to force a manicooler failure - Although manicoolers are more robust than any of us normally would give them credit for there are a number of ways in which we can force these parts to fail prematurely. These methods can be grouped into a few categories but fortunately we are not interested in most of these categories such as hitting them with a 12# sledge hammer. Similarly we do not often talk about ignoring obvious external leaks or running the engines without the raw water valves open as we all can clearly understand those types of cause and effect failures. The area that this topic almost always intends to address are those failures which occur internal to the manicooler assembly and are directly or indirectly related to erosion. Internal erosion occurs on the manicooler when a 'boiling' takes place on the inside of the aluminum runners as supported by enough heat as well as a specific spot for the boiling to originate from. Now we can focus only on this particular failure mechanism of manicooler erosion and what is the best method to generate it.

Easiest way to force a new manicooler to fail from internal erosion - We have a brand new boat that is waiting for us to force a manicooler failure but it has to be this exact failure and cannot be a previously discussed obvious 'trick'(IE -we cannot just close the raw water valve).

The best way to generate this erosion failure in the manicooler is to elevate the temperature as high as possible as well as limit the ability of the coolant to accept and spread out the heat. So on a new engine the easiest ways to do these two things will be the following:

1. Overprop the boat so as to allow it to get fully on plane and to accept a full throttle of fuel load but only allow it to achieve about 90% of max rpms's. This will allow almost a full load of fuel but not allow the engine to realize its full cooling capability from either air, water, or the oil heat transfer. Additionally items such as the engines fuel timing will be off since they are mapped to be correct only for a specific load at a specific rpm - later relative fuel timing and less air turbulence will just add more relative heat.

2. Open the radiator cap and dilute the neutral antifreeze mixture, also add some contaminants in there (such as salt) which will further degrade the heat extraction capability as well as supply a needed point for the erosion to work from.

These two will work pretty well together as the engine will put tremendous amounts of heat into the manicooler runners and the contaminated coolant will offer less ability to pull heat away - while at the same time the contaminants from small local spots which support the boiling inside the manicooler which generates the erosion we are looking for. All we have to do now is maintain this exact environment long enough for the erosion to work its way all the way through the manicooler. For many of us that have witnessed this treatment it will still take hundreds of hours to work its way through the aluminum runner right adjacent to the exhaust ports.

Other methods to force this failure - By this time any seasoned boat owner is likely anxious to add all of the 'other' and 'better' ways to either add heat into the runners or limit the ability to pull the heat away. There is no doubt that you will all be correct in that there are limitless methods to add to these two areas of destruction. It is also a good time to point out that by working more than one of these methods at the same time the ability to force a local failure becomes easier. A decent example of this would be to add a single partial injector failure to our test case above which will put an even greater heat load into one runner of the manicooler. So it is also good to note how interactive all of these failure mechanisms (or maintenance items if you will) are related to one another.

Let's list a few ways to add combustion heat in the runner - Not intended to be all inclusive here are a few examples:

ÔÇó Partially blocked air flow

ÔÇó Low turbo output

ÔÇó Valve adjustment

ÔÇó Fuel timing

ÔÇó Nozzle spay pattern

ÔÇó Head torque

ÔÇó Partially restricted exhaust

And a few ways to defeat the heats escape -

ÔÇó Partially blocked strainer or raw water valve

ÔÇó Partially collapsed raw water inlet hoses

ÔÇó Raw water pump partial failure

ÔÇó 'Mud' buildup in coolant bundles

ÔÇó Coolant pump belts

ÔÇó Coolant pump vanes

ÔÇó Thermostat

ÔÇó Poor or old lube oil

How about detection? - Well there is some good news here because besides the fact that you will know you are not up to date on the maintenance items there are few obvious ways to detect this coming on. They kinda fit into groups which are relatively easy to review each time out and they include baseline gage readings, exterior engine signs, combustion symptoms, and added gage protection.

-Gage readings would suggest you take a digital picture at varied rpm's of all of the standard gages to use as a comparison. This can then be used to see if you are drifting towards signs of extra heat in the engine. Engine temps, oil pressure, speed at a given rpm can all be indicators over time.

-Exterior engine signs will be things like how far the removed paint extends along the manicooler runner where it meets the head, how much mud is in the bottom of overflow bottles, how much mud can we wiped off of the bundle under the rad cap, and how far the rust extends from the turbo base where it attaches at the manicooler.

-Combustion symptoms would be smoke that is black in nature at cruise and or increased accumulated soot on the transom.

- The best real time indicators are adding gages that read boost and exhaust gas temperatures (EGT) known as pyrometers. Both of these gages can be installed for less than a few hundred bucks and tell you much better what the engine is doing internally.

Anything that can be done to prevent these basic causes of failures will add a good deal to the life of your engines and also allow any 'extra credit' you do to be worth that much more. So please prop the boat correctly and stay on top of your maintenance schedule so your manicoolers will outlive all of us.

Hope this helps,

Ron and Karen

"No Worries"

[tgotch]

Here is what Current owner stated about some of this maintenance:

It has not been necessary to do any work on main coolers. I have read in salt water can result in build up of deposits over time. I have also read freshwater can actually clean out deposits over time when salt water boats are used in fresh water. The risers were changed in about 2000 by the previous owner. There is no sign of leakage elbows. I changed anti freeze from typical green fluid anti freeze to the modern orange anti freeze used a cars today when I purchased boat in 2005. The anti freeze is mixed at 50/50 for maximum resistance to freezing. It has been 12 years so it could be changed in future. When the throttles are set at 2000 rpm's or less the temperature stays around 175 degrees which is very good. When you are really pushing the engines at 3000 rpm's the temperature goes up close to 190. Still well within temperature range.

Interesting observation. When you are cruising at 1500 rpm's the engine heat in cylinders is not very much the fuel burns clean and all is good, but when you suddenly decide to go full throttle the exhaust shows a little black soot in exhaust for about 30 seconds as there is not enough heat in cylinders for a complete burn. Also you will only run around 2900 rpm's. After 30 seconds the trace of black soot in exhaust disappears and runs clean as cylinders and piston are heated up and expand and the end gap on piston ring is less which helps to restricts any blow by. The rpm's will come up around two rpm's and the temperature increases to 190 or so. You will see a top speed of around 18 or 19 mph and will also be burning three times as much fuel per hour.

I replaced the transmission fluid last fall while in storage and I also replace the engine oil last fall while in storage. I have not changed the the water intake impellers on either diesel engine. There is a plate that can be removed on the side of impeller to check condition of impeller blades. They have always looked fine so I left them alone. I inspected one impeller blade again in storage this summer in storage once again and absorbed it to be in perfect condition. It has been over 12 years which is a testament to how nice boats like fresh water. I have heard every three years or so impellers might fail when used in salt water.

I have changed the impeller twice on the 12 kw Westerbeke generator. If you are in shallow water weedy spot weeds can get stuck in pipe before sea strainer and choke off water supply to generator and the rubber impeller over heats and the blades break off. You know you have a problem when the generator exhaust sound tinny without enough water flowing out of generator exhaust pipe. It takes about 10 minutes to replace impeller on generator. If you find blades are missing you will need to take of additional pipe going to generator cooler and remove impeller bladders blocking water flow to generator water radiator entrance before installing new new impeller. I always have a replacement generator impeller on the boat and I also have two replacement impellers on board for the diesel engine impellers.

I change engine oil every year even though the oil in Hino's does not look dirty. I also change the Westerbeke oil every year. The transmission fluid is changed about every three years. I always looks clean.

[smitty477]

"tgotch" post=824570 wrote:
Here is what Current owner stated about some of this maintenance:

It has not been necessary to do any work on main coolers. I have read in salt water can result in build up of deposits over time. I have also read freshwater can actually clean out deposits over time when salt water boats are used in fresh water. The risers were changed in about 2000 by the previous owner. There is no sign of leakage elbows. I changed anti freeze from typical green fluid anti freeze to the modern orange anti freeze used a cars today when I purchased boat in 2005. The anti freeze is mixed at 50/50 for maximum resistance to freezing. It has been 12 years so it could be changed in future. When the throttles are set at 2000 rpm's or less the temperature stays around 175 degrees which is very good. When you are really pushing the engines at 3000 rpm's the temperature goes up close to 190. Still well within temperature range.

Interesting observation. When you are cruising at 1500 rpm's the engine heat in cylinders is not very much the fuel burns clean and all is good, but when you suddenly decide to go full throttle the exhaust shows a little black soot in exhaust for about 30 seconds as there is not enough heat in cylinders for a complete burn. Also you will only run around 2900 rpm's. After 30 seconds the trace of black soot in exhaust disappears and runs clean as cylinders and piston are heated up and expand and the end gap on piston ring is less which helps to restricts any blow by. The rpm's will come up around two rpm's and the temperature increases to 190 or so. You will see a top speed of around 18 or 19 mph and will also be burning three times as much fuel per hour.

I replaced the transmission fluid last fall while in storage and I also replace the engine oil last fall while in storage. I have not changed the the water intake impellers on either diesel engine. There is a plate that can be removed on the side of impeller to check condition of impeller blades. They have always looked fine so I left them alone. I inspected one impeller blade again in storage this summer in storage once again and absorbed it to be in perfect condition. It has been over 12 years which is a testament to how nice boats like fresh water. I have heard every three years or so impellers might fail when used in salt water.

I have changed the impeller twice on the 12 kw Westerbeke generator. If you are in shallow water weedy spot weeds can get stuck in pipe before sea strainer and choke off water supply to generator and the rubber impeller over heats and the blades break off. You know you have a problem when the generator exhaust sound tinny without enough water flowing out of generator exhaust pipe. It takes about 10 minutes to replace impeller on generator. If you find blades are missing you will need to take of additional pipe going to generator cooler and remove impeller bladders blocking water flow to generator water radiator entrance before installing new new impeller. I always have a replacement generator impeller on the boat and I also have two replacement impellers on board for the diesel engine impellers.

I change engine oil every year even though the oil in Hino's does not look dirty. I also change the Westerbeke oil every year. The transmission fluid is changed about every three years. I always looks clean.

Interesting - Do you have any thoughts on what this lack of maintenance means? Do you have copy of the maintenance required by the Hino manual? Do you know the total engine hours? Do you have the full maintenance schedules? Have you been on the boat? do you have 50+ hi res pictures of the machinery? Has the owner represented what works and what does not work on the boat?

And without trying to be a smart a__ - did you want us to comment on the owners statements you posted?

General question - will this be your first diesel boat?

[tgotch]

This is my first foray into Diesel, and motoryacht, so I am trying to educate myself.

I have not seen the boat, but may go look at it soon. He has sent me an insurance survey from 2 years ago, plus pics.

Boat has ~1800 hours. Owner stated he does his own maintenance.

I posted the owner's comments. Feel free to comment.

[Pcpete]

Well, I may disagree about the freshwater not sludging, but at least he's been doing the oil changes. With the engine temperature rising at 3000, there may be a restriction forming in the risers. If he's only changed the raw water pump in the genset twice, what about the impellers for the mains? That's another place that could be causing the temperature rise. Hinos like to be run fast, mine really "like" to run at 2800. If I'm cruising at 1200-2000, I need to run it up for a bit to clean it out. Very common with diesels, they are made to work, not loaf.

Here's how I would proceed. It's just how I would do it and not specifically correct. First, get in touch with Earl the Bayliner Guru http://www.susanmohr.com/index.html He is the singular most knowledgeable person about Hinos. He can guide you through a virtual survey of the engines. Second, I would plan to replace the hoses, belts and impellers on the mains and generator. There's a Jabsco replacement impeller for the mains that is closer to $75 than the $250 for the direct name brand impeller. Third, service the risers with a plan to replace them. Fourth, have the injectors serviced, heads retorqued and valves adjusted and perhaps the lift pump rebuilt. It's the sitting for two years that bothers me on that one. Fifth, full, complete fluid changes and filter changes. If the boat doesn't have Racors install them then run two micron filters so that nothing gets into the engine fuel system. They will probably need to be changed a few times as you are "waking the boat up", but they are only about $12 each and very easy to change. Sixth, consider having the fuel tanks cleaned and the fuel "polished". Diesel supports an algie strain that loves to clog filters. Fresh fuel isn't a problem, it's the old stuff that can be.

The current owner may disagree with a good bit of what I have listed, but you are the buyer and asking the right questions. Hinos are tough engines and very straight forward.

[tgotch]

Thanks. I will contact Earl.

Impellers/belts/hoses, I can do myself

What is the cost on risers? ~$1000ea.?

What is ballpark $$ on: Have the injectors serviced, heads retorqued and valves adjusted and perhaps the lift pump rebuilt?

Owner stated he installed Racors, and thinks they are 2 micron.

[Pcpete]

Earl can answer all of those questions much more accurately than I can. I did look into the stainless steel versions. They were around $1600 each from national marine exhaust in marysville, WA.

[smitty477]

"This is my first foray into Diesel, and motoryacht, so I am trying to educate myself."

This is what I see so far from your post....

Here is whet I see.....

" It has not been necessary to do any work on main coolers. I have read in salt water can result in build up of deposits over time. I have also read freshwater can actually clean out deposits over time when salt water boats are used in fresh water."

Inaccurate - the largest problems stem from not servicing the coolant side not the raw water side. Fresh water use become irrelevant here.

"The risers were changed in about 2000 by the previous owner. There is no sign of leakage elbows."

Dependent upon which risers he went to these are either overdo or way overdo. Fresh water increases riser life but does not give it perpetual life- lack of use can be worse when the boat so left in the water. When it comes to risers do not fear the leaks you can see but really fear the ones that are hidden - those cost yo engines and turbos.

"I changed anti freeze from typical green fluid anti freeze to the modern orange anti freeze used a cars today when I purchased boat in 2005. The anti freeze is mixed at 50/50 for maximum resistance to freezing. It has been 12 years so it could be changed in future."

While this does not tell me exactly what was used it is likely the wrong coolant and well overdo. I would expect mud build up at the least and perhaps other damage at the worst.

Remove and inspect at the vey least and expect some dollars here.

"When the throttles are set at 2000 rpm's or less the temperature stays around 175 degrees which is very good. When you are really pushing the engines at 3000 rpm's the temperature goes up close to 190. Still well within temperature range." Hers is a list for this one liner.....

- are the tachs accurate?

- are the temp gages accurate?

- all my Hino's (4 pairs) could run at WOT with the temps remaining at n=or very near 175

- there could be deferred maintenance on the raw water side, the coolant side, the engine tune up side , overpropped ,or all the above

Sorting this issue out will take a lot more information and a lot of time invested for someone.

"Interesting observation. When you are cruising at 1500 rpm's the engine heat in cylinders is not very much the fuel burns clean and all is good, but when you suddenly decide to go full throttle the exhaust shows a little black soot in exhaust for about 30 seconds as there is not enough heat in cylinders for a complete burn."

This is inaccurate - a puff of black smoke if you firewall the throttles from 1500 rpm would be normal but of it lasts more than 5 seconds or so you have other problems.

Any of the following list can be part of that problem....

- Overpropped

- Damaged or unbalanced props

- dirty hull bottom or running gear

- last injector service was when?

- Last valve adjust

- Last air cleaner and exhaust check/clean

- Injection timing last

- Head retorque last

- Intercooler serviced last

"Also you will only run around 2900 rpm's. After 30 seconds the trace of black soot in exhaust disappears and runs clean as cylinders and piston are heated up and expand and the end gap on piston ring is less which helps to restricts any blow by. The rpm's will come up around two rpm's and the temperature increases to 190 or so. You will see a top speed of around 18 or 19 mph and will also be burning three times as much fuel per hour."

Mostly all false ÔÇô the engines need to be tuned and loaded so that they reach a WOT for testing of 3,000+ (3090-3150 preferred). If you really want to know the temps add pyro and boost gages and then you have a full real time look in the engines status. Speeds are related to many conditions such as loading, prop tune, engine tune etc but both of our past 4588's with 220 Hinos reached at least 18 knots WOT on any day and on most days would reach 19 knots. (about 20.5 mph and 21.75 mph respectively)

"I replaced the transmission fluid last fall while in storage and I also replace the engine oil last fall while in storage."

Which trans is in this boat? The MG502? Did he clean the screen? Did the cooler get replaced recently? On the oil change is he cleaning the centrifuges?

Does he have an engine handbook? If yes why is he not following it?

"I have not changed the the water intake impellers on either diesel engine. There is a plate that can be removed on the side of impeller to check condition of impeller blades. They have always looked fine so I left them alone. I inspected one impeller blade again in storage this summer in storage once again and absorbed it to be in perfect condition. It has been over 12 years which is a testament to how nice boats like fresh water. I have heard every three years or so impellers might fail when used in salt water."

This is inaccurate - Salt water has nothing to do with impeller life ÔÇô the vanes take a set from sitting and when they fail there can be really large problems. Remove and inspect every 2 years and do a thorough inspection of all parts> I would expect they need most of the following ÔÇô impeller, cover, cam, rear wear plate, maybe bearings if they have not been greased and what about the grease fitting on the coolant pump?

" I have changed the impeller twice on the 12 kw Westerbeke generator. If you are in shallow water weedy spot weeds can get stuck in pipe before sea strainer and choke off water supply to generator and the rubber impeller over heats and the blades break off. You know you have a problem when the generator exhaust sound tinny without enough water flowing out of generator exhaust pipe. It takes about 10 minutes to replace impeller on generator. If you find blades are missing you will need to take of additional pipe going to generator cooler and remove impeller bladders blocking water flow to generator water radiator entrance before installing new new impeller. I always have a replacement generator impeller on the boat and I also have two replacement impellers on board for the diesel engine impellers."

You do not say how many hours on the 12.5 Westy but I guess it will need the following to be confirmed done.

- Both fuel filters on engine

- Raw water pumo full rebuild kit or a new pump

- Heat exchanger service or a new exchanger

- Head retorque

- Valves

- Injection timing

- Governor setting

- Exhaust elbow

- All hoses and belts

" I change engine oil every year even though the oil in Hino's does not look dirty."

Is he changing the pleated filters? If he cleaning the centrifuges? Is he warming the engines and pulling oil out the pan hose?

This is not a complete list of all potential issues with the engines or the boat - it is a first reaction to the very limited information that is in the post.

[smitty477]

"tgotch" post=824580 wrote:
Thanks. I will contact Earl.

Impellers/belts/hoses, I can do myself

What is the cost on risers? ~$1000ea.?

What is ballpark $$ on: Have the injectors serviced, heads retorqued and valves adjusted and perhaps the lift pump rebuilt?

Owner stated he installed Racors, and thinks they are 2 micron.

Risers - I have bought risers twice (for two diff boats) from Greenwater exhaust for a good price and great results (SS with ceramic coatings)

The initial stock racor filters should be 30 mic - maybe 10 if you have very clean fuel on board.

If the fuel is 3 years old it is suspect - if it is 5 years old it should be mostly removed.

Roughly where is this boat? Where is it wintered on land or in the water? When was the last time it was out of the water and the hull inspected?