Advice on Survey Issues-gctid812560

[GMS]

We have a purchase agreement on a 2008 Meridian 490 in Seattle, a number of issues we view as significant came up during the survey that we could use advice on how to value and whether to reject the yacht.

There are many beautiful 490's and 4788's in the area that we want to be sure to get right one. This boat has a rear helm station (among other interesting options) which is quite a cool feature, but may not be worth the risk.

The boat was advertised to have the following items, which we factored into our negotiated price, but it does not in fact have them

1. Diesel, Hot Water Heat

2. 1,275 hours and it has 1,394 (a full season of use difference)

3. a 40 HP motor on the dinghy which is actually a 25 HP (we fortunately noticed this before negotiating on price, so not an issue - but evidence of misrepresentation)

The survey came back with a couple material items:

1. One transmission had dirty oil and appears to be going bad despite a solid sea trial (surveyor consulted with a mechanic and recommends rebuild)

2. The fly bridge controls stick and do not work properly (surveyor indicated them as a safety issue)

Thank you for your advice!

[Uncle_Bob]

If that's all that came up as issues on a 10 year old boat, I'd say you are doing OK. Furnace will cost quite a bit and so will an inverter if there isn't one.

[smitty477]

Sounds like they took an existing or older listing and marked it up for the new listing - not so unusual from what I have seen.

While I never appreciate that type of stuff there is nothing significant in the lists you have so far shown us.

With no other pictures, engine specs, detailed descriptions or maintenance records there is nothing here worth stopping a deal over IMO.

Good luck and happy boating

[ksanders]

Does the boat not have heat, or does it not have hot water supplied by the heating system??? If the boat has no heating system thats a biggie. I spent $14K on my boats heating system. If the boat has desel heat, but no potable water connected to the heating system that is another much less important issue. Personally we run the generator enough on our boat that we never lack hot shower water, so for me at least hot water is a non issue.

Dirty transmission oil is not generally a reason to rebuild a transmission I think. At least I've never seen it.

Have you have a real mechaical survey done, or are you relying on a general surveyor checking the fluid and his phone call to a "mechanic". I would opt for a real mechanical survey. Then if there is an issue you could take it up with the sellers as a descrepancy to be resolved.

The hours mean nothing. The boat was listed and the hours probably recorded at that time. Since then the boat has been used. That is GOOD. Boats that actually get used are in my opinion better than boats that sit at the dock.

The flying bridge controlls being rough can be easily adressed. Possibly by taking as few moments and actually working them by hand back and forth.

The skiff outboard size 40 hp vs 25, I would rather have the lighter 25 hp engine myself. Besides, you made your offer after seeing the boat and tasking note of the smaller eninge anyway, so to me that issue is already settled.

If it were me, and I had a survey come back that clean I would be adressing the issues as indiacted above, and closing on the boat.

[Pcpete]

The difference in engine hours could be attributed to trolling on one engine, something I do a lot of. The controls in the cockpit is an indicator there, an item on my list to install. I'm wondering if the dirty transmission is on the engine with the higher hours. Further evidence that there was a significant amount of trolling. These are really simple transmissions. Much simpler than in your car.

Did you assume that the boat has the hot water heat and it doesn't? Or does it have forced air that you thought was hot water heat? Or is there only 120v electric.

Did I mention that I'm not fond of Brokers? I've found that they often copy and edit the specs from another offering and miss the heat and dinghy motor power. When questioned its usually due to sloppy work on the part of the broker.

As to the controls being sticky, that may be as simple as adjusting the tensioner on the control, assuming they are cable. Or, if the cables are binding or worn, replacing them is not that difficult nor expensive. Realize that most surveyors feel thy need to find something that needs attention. I just did all eight of mine on GLAUBEN for about $300 in parts an eight or ten hours of my labor. I'm slow and work cheap.

After you talked to Harbor Marine and got an estimate, and considering the controls to be about a boat buck for estimating purposes, does the boat meet a price you are willing to pay for a nine year old boat? Similar to buying a used car, truck or even brand new in some cases, there are going to be known things. The stuff the survey identified. Then there are the known unknowns. Things that you know are going to pop up due to time or lack of use. It's the unknown unknowns that you just factor in another five or seven boat bucks for in looking at the real cost of buying the boat. Your survey lessens the risk but your best indicator, IMO, the the overall condition of the boat.

Feel free to call me. My number is in the annual

Pete

[SomeSailor]

"ksanders" post=812581 wrote:
Dirty transmission oil is not generally a reason to rebuild a transmission I think. At least I've never seen it.

Remember one is always running in reverse, and therefore working a bit harder. Usually that's the starboard (motor turning one way and prop the other). With this in mind it's not unusual to see one wear a bit more or dirty the oil quicker.

I would also say that hours are a good thing. It means someone used it, and putting hours on it would expose any weak points. Have them address the survey findings and adjust your offer accordingly. is it a pretty clean boat overall?

[smitty477]

"1. One transmission had dirty oil and appears to be going bad despite a solid sea trial (surveyor consulted with a mechanic and recommends rebuild)"

Transmission comment only - are they 800 series Hurth? Have the cooler been replaced. Have the trans been serviced?

If the coolers are original they need replacement anyway at about $100 each - then you pullout the fluid at about 5.5 qts ATF and clean the SS pleated filter with a can of carb cleaner or throttle body cleaner.

2 coolers plus shipping / 12 qts ATF / 2 cans throttle cleaner - you are still under $300 for both trans services if you do the work yourself.

This is why we are saying these are small issues for this boat if that is all that is required now.

[GMS]

Thanks to everyone for the informative replies!

On the transmission a bit more description might be in order... As part of the survey we had oil/fluid samples analyzed and it was this analysis that led to the recommendation of servicing/rebuilding the transmission (high particulate count of wear metals). Accordingly, the evidence suggests it is more than just flushing the fluid, etc.. (but I don't have a lot of experience with inboard engines and this type of transmission).

Greatly appreciate the view point on the hours, as the boat is overall in good condition.

On the flybridge controls, this is a 2008 490 with electronic engine controls. The controls appear to be a sealed system with no adjustments or lubrication points. The controls are stiff enough that it is difficult/impossible to feel gearshifts. Might be a simple fix, but surveyor and brokers all seemed to agree it was a likely replacement.

In the end, our originally negotiated price was on the high side of where these boats have been selling over the last few years, so our expectations were high regarding systems being in good working order (and all advertised features being present). Feeback is greatly appreciated, and will be taken into consideration going forward.

Cheers...

[smitty477]

'On the transmission a bit more description might be in order... As part of the survey we had oil/fluid samples analyzed and it was this analysis that led to the recommendation of servicing/rebuilding the transmission (high particulate count of wear metals). Accordingly, the evidence suggests it is more than just flushing the fluid, etc.. (but I don't have a lot of experience with inboard engines and this type of transmission).'

If these are original and have never been serviced then doing a cooler change and new fluid with filter might make all the difference - do you have a maintenance history?

'On the flybridge controls, this is a 2008 490 with electronic engine controls. The controls appear to be a sealed system with no adjustments or lubrication points. The controls are stiff enough that it is difficult/impossible to feel gearshifts. Might be a simple fix, but surveyor and brokers all seemed to agree it was a likely replacement."

A known single issues that is 'priceable' at its worst point is a very unusual situation - this is entirely fixable and easy to estimate.

" In the end, our originally negotiated price was on the high side of where these boats have been selling over the last few years, so our expectations were high regarding systems being in good working order (and all advertised features being present). Feeback is greatly appreciated, and will be taken into consideration going forward."

I cannot tell you what to spend but I can say that I have never seen a boat get a survey and not have at least a couple of dozen items on the "list"

What is most unusual for us to see is what is missing from the survey list - just about everything (that is good).

No mention of main engines performance, genset, seacocks, running gear, bottom condition, appliances, electronics, hull issues, etc etc.

Just not typical - Good luck with the potential purchase

[mmichellich]

Your boat should have electric hot water heat and hot water being made when ever the engines run so you really have diesel hot water being heated. Did boat advertisement say a diesel furnace was included? There are mechanics that will tell you that unless you have oil samples to compare over a period of years they do not mean much, like every year for say 5 years. Then you can find a trend. Did the transmission report show metal in the oil and if so how did it compare to the other engine transmission?

[GMS]

Transmission fluid in the questionable side showed evidence of much higher particulate count than the other transmission...

[ksanders]

"GMS" post=812620 wrote:
Transmission fluid in the questionable side showed evidence of much higher particulate count than the other transmission...

OK, then reduce the price by the cost of a new transmission including installation labor.

Putting in a new transmission should be a one day job, btw.

Work out a fair deduct to the sticky shift on the flying bridge, and own what seems to be a very nice boat based on the limited survey issues.

[GMS]

Hopefully, this is exactly where we are headed ;-)