3288 Buying Advice - Manicoolers-gctid808700

[Pterfloth]

I recently had a survey done on a 1991 3288 with twin 150's and 2250 hrs on each. The engines started easily with no smoke. First start since being on the hard all winter. Ran well during sea trial, temp steady, trim tabs weren't working so we couldn't out of the hole and topped our at 2850 rpm. Hull and all other systems good except sanitation hoses need replacement (smells bad).

The mechanical surveyor says that with 2250 hrs, the manicoolers need to be replaced and could fail at any moment. Basically said that any Hint 150 with 2000+ hours needs new manicoolers. That potential bill scares the heck out of me. I see many 3288's with 1900-3000 hrs with original manicoolers here in the PacNW, so I don't know how seriously to take this advice. It will make or break my buying decision.

Of note, we discovered that the oil and filters had not been changed since 3/28/15 at 1869 hrs. Now has 2250 hrs. Shaft bearings also need replacement.

What advice would you give me?

I appreciate your feedback.

[smitty477]

"What advice would you give me?"

try and simplify these decisions by taking the emotion out of the equation.

No manicooler maintenance schedule = possible parts failure and costs

Manicooler remove and inspection is needed to ensure the above will not occur.

"trim tabs weren't working so we couldn't out of the hole and topped our at 2850 rpm"

Were tachs accurate" Engines need to reach 3,000 rpm +3-5% for long engine life.

"Basically said that any Hint 150 with 2000+ hours needs new manicoolers."

That is an inaccurate statement but does cover the surveyor if anything happens in the future.

Your post does not cover the dozens of other possible areas of concern so one would believe there are no others with this particular boat.

[Pcpete]

Test the ph of the coolant. That's a prime killer of the manicoolers. If you are looking at the list prices only for replacement, then yeah, they are crazy expensive. There are alternatives in the aftermarket, and there is an outfit in Kent, WA that does great work cleaning repairing and ceramic coating. However, I believe the surveyor is in error about the manicooler relationship to hours replacement. The manicooler is coolant cooled not raw water cooled like most exhaust manifolds. The risers are raw water cooled and are the greater risk IMO.

Contact Earl International aka the Bayliner Guru here on the BOC or Smitty may chime in, but without laying eyes on the engines your concern may not be as big a deal as the surveyor noted.

[Pterfloth]

Thanks for your prompt reply. The cooling hoses looked original and had bulges and blisters. Otherwise, aside from the statements by the surveyor, they looked pretty good with very little paint flaking off of the manicoolers or other engine surface rust I have commonly seen.

Everything else about the boat is pretty good. I've been educating myself for a year now and have looked at 8 different 3288's. Hull, decks, canvas, electronics, heater, lights, stove, fridge, etc. all work well and are in nice shape.

We could not get over 9.4 kts at WOT. The broker told me this is because the tanks were 100% full and the trim tabs were not working. This was my first sea trail because I've never advanced a deal this far before. I'd need to see the tabs fixed and the vessel able to achieve normal cruising speed before I would buy.

It's the $10-15k manicooler replacement bill that really has me questioning this or any other 3288 with 2000+ hrs.

[smitty477]

" We could not get over 9.4 kts at WOT."

Were the tachs know accurate?

"It's the $10-15k manicooler replacement bill that really has me questioning this or any other 3288 with 2000+ hrs."

Perhaps contact Earl and get quotes/ideas/options now or for the future...

Here is an older post cut and pasted.....

Hino Manicoolers

There have been numerous posts about the Hino manicoolers as of late and it appears that more information would assist owners of what to expect with these assemblies. Although the Hino engines have a unique part number for their assemblies these principles do apply to a range of similar marine manicooler engines other the Hino. In the presentation of some of these thoughts some minor liberties are being taken in analogies as well as some exaggerations in order to make a point clearer - the intention is not to mislead. Please accept this information for any value as it was intended.

Enhancing Manicooler life - Well this is always a great idea with any mechanical device and can be especially valuable in the area of heavily loaded and expensive marine parts. While it is both admirable and prudent to take steps such as 'ceramic coating' of manicoolers this is to be considered 'extra credit' in the manicooler book of maintenance. Extra credit is the + 5 to 10 points you can get on a test after the basic 100 point score is added up. So of course this is a great thing to do but only if you have already taken care of the core maintenance items for your engines which constitute the base of your extra work.

A place to start - Often people ask 'how long will these manicoolers last' and then we get a bunch of replies most of which are correct to a certain degree but lack information most often due to the way the question is asked. So let's answer this question based upon a different set of given parameters as a starting point for comparison - 'How long will a manicooler last if it is filled with a perfect mix of antifreeze and DI water, subjected to a constant room temperature of 65 Degrees F only, and sealed inside box?

Well that answer would likely be something like this - "in the range of millions of years".

But this answer has no real value to us as we utilize our boats in varied ways and in wildly varying environments. We could begin to then discuss each and every one of these variations as a method to determine a lifespan - but that would also be very specific to each variable chosen and have limited use for us. Alternately one of the soft 'tools' we used to use when engineering new systems was an analysis tool that would basically ask " how can we most easily make this part fail?". That tool was called a force field analysis and after it was reasonably completed by the team we could gather up the best methods to force the part to fail, prioritize them, and then figure out the best ways to combat those failure mechanisms.

How to force a manicooler failure - Although manicoolers are more robust than any of us normally would give them credit for there are a number of ways in which we can force these parts to fail prematurely. These methods can be grouped into a few categories but fortunately we are not interested in most of these categories such as hitting them with a 12# sledge hammer. Similarly we do not often talk about ignoring obvious external leaks or running the engines without the raw water valves open as we all can clearly understand those types of cause and effect failures. The area that this topic almost always intends to address are those failures which occur internal to the manicooler assembly and are directly or indirectly related to erosion. Internal erosion occurs on the manicooler when a 'boiling' takes place on the inside of the aluminum runners as supported by enough heat as well as a specific spot for the boiling to originate from. Now we can focus only on this particular failure mechanism of manicooler erosion and what is the best method to generate it.

Easiest way to force a new manicooler to fail from internal erosion - We have a brand new boat that is waiting for us to force a manicooler failure but it has to be this exact failure and cannot be a previously discussed obvious 'trick'(IE -we cannot just close the raw water valve).

The best way to generate this erosion failure in the manicooler is to elevate the temperature as high as possible as well as limit the ability of the coolant to accept and spread out the heat. So on a new engine the easiest ways to do these two things will be the following:

1. Overprop the boat so as to allow it to get fully on plane and to accept a full throttle of fuel load but only allow it to achieve about 90% of max rpms's. This will allow almost a full load of fuel but not allow the engine to realize its full cooling capability from either air, water, or the oil heat transfer. Additionally items such as the engines fuel timing will be off since they are mapped to be correct only for a specific load at a specific rpm - later relative fuel timing and less air turbulence will just add more relative heat.

2. Open the radiator cap and dilute the neutral antifreeze mixture, also add some contaminants in there (such as salt) which will further degrade the heat extraction capability as well as supply a needed point for the erosion to work from.

These two will work pretty well together as the engine will put tremendous amounts of heat into the manicooler runners and the contaminated coolant will offer less ability to pull heat away - while at the same time the contaminants from small local spots which support the boiling inside the manicooler which generates the erosion we are looking for. All we have to do now is maintain this exact environment long enough for the erosion to work its way all the way through the manicooler. For many of us that have witnessed this treatment it will still take hundreds of hours to work its way through the aluminum runner right adjacent to the exhaust ports.

Other methods to force this failure - By this time any seasoned boat owner is likely anxious to add all of the 'other' and 'better' ways to either add heat into the runners or limit the ability to pull the heat away. There is no doubt that you will all be correct in that there are limitless methods to add to these two areas of destruction. It is also a good time to point out that by working more than one of these methods at the same time the ability to force a local failure becomes easier. A decent example of this would be to add a single partial injector failure to our test case above which will put an even greater heat load into one runner of the manicooler. So it is also good to note how interactive all of these failure mechanisms (or maintenance items if you will) are related to one another.

Let's list a few ways to add combustion heat in the runner - Not intended to be all inclusive here are a few examples:

ÔÇó Partially blocked air flow

ÔÇó Low turbo output

ÔÇó Valve adjustment

ÔÇó Fuel timing

ÔÇó Nozzle spay pattern

ÔÇó Head torque

ÔÇó Partially restricted exhaust

And a few ways to defeat the heats escape -

ÔÇó Partially blocked strainer or raw water valve

ÔÇó Partially collapsed raw water inlet hoses

ÔÇó Raw water pump partial failure

ÔÇó 'Mud' buildup in coolant bundles

ÔÇó Coolant pump belts

ÔÇó Coolant pump vanes

ÔÇó Thermostat

ÔÇó Poor or old lube oil

How about detection? - Well there is some good news here because besides the fact that you will know you are not up to date on the maintenance items there are few obvious ways to detect this coming on. They kinda fit into groups which are relatively easy to review each time out and they include baseline gage readings, exterior engine signs, combustion symptoms, and added gage protection.

-Gage readings would suggest you take a digital picture at varied rpm's of all of the standard gages to use as a comparison. This can then be used to see if you are drifting towards signs of extra heat in the engine. Engine temps, oil pressure, speed at a given rpm can all be indicators over time.

-Exterior engine signs will be things like how far the removed paint extends along the manicooler runner where it meets the head, how much mud is in the bottom of overflow bottles, how much mud can we wiped off of the bundle under the rad cap, and how far the rust extends from the turbo base where it attaches at the manicooler.

-Combustion symptoms would be smoke that is black in nature at cruise and or increased accumulated soot on the transom.

- The best real time indicators are adding gages that read boost and exhaust gas temperatures (EGT) known as pyrometers. Both of these gages can be installed for less than a few hundred bucks and tell you much better what the engine is doing internally.

Anything that can be done to prevent these basic causes of failures will add a good deal to the life of your engines and also allow any 'extra credit' you do to be worth that much more. So please prop the boat correctly and stay on top of your maintenance schedule so your manicoolers will outlive all of us.

Hope this helps,

Ron and Karen

"No Worries"

[smitty477]

Here is the TSB....


Attached files

[Pterfloth]

Thanks again. I do not know if the techs were accurate. We ran at WOT and the temperature gradually crept up to 195F in a couple of minutes, so we backed off to 2400 and the temperature came right back down again. The bow was riding very high and we were just pushing water. Adjusting the trim tabs didn't change anything.

I know that at least for the past two years the boat hasn't been maintained well as evidenced by the lack of oil or filter changes. The boat was a charter boat the past two years. The helm stations are marked cruise at 1400-1700 rpm, which is what I imagine most customers would have done.

I had read what you attached, thanks for that, as I have been learning as much as I can for the past year.

[Destiny_4588]

If you can confirm the Tach are accurate or not (pretty quick to do with a tach gun) then you will know what the engines are doing. As your may be over or under pitched on the props. When we had a 3288 it ran slower with full fuel tanks and then after an hour or two it would pick some speed as he load balanced out. I do recall using trim tabs to get the bow down on our boat but not sure about getting it to plane with them.

Not sure this helps much, my real point is I know we repitched our props on both our 3288 and 4588 after some use and knowing Tachs were accurate (on both boats they were not accurate) and the prop work allowed engines to get to full RPM which allow allowed us to get a better crusing speed. These are not fast boats. I think most people cruise at 2700 max (slower is better fuel economy which this boat is amazing at sipping fuel at the slower speeds).

Hope this helps, 3288 is great boat (a lot of boat in a little package)

[Happy_Friday]

Manicoolers are of course very important but don't overlook getting an oil analysis done. It is inexpensive and you can specify on the requisition that you would like attention paid to the possible presence of glycol and or water. Good luck!

[mmichellich]

Get a new mechanic. Properly maintained the manicoolers can last as long as the engines. Properly maintained is the key. If the boat does not over heat when reun at fast cruise or short bursts to WOT then the manicoolers are working properly. If you purchase the boat suggest for peace of mind you pull the manicoolers and have them cleaned and checked.

[ALASKAN_ADVENTURER]

[quote]"mmichellich" post=808855 wrote:
Get a new mechanic. Properly maintained the manicoolers can last as long as the engines. Properly maintained is the key. If the boat does not over heat when reun at fast cruise or short bursts to WOT then the manicoolers are working properly. If you purchase the boat suggest for peace of mind you pull the manicoolers and have them cleaned and checked.[/quyes

X2

my manis were spotless at 1900 hrs. I did have the inserts cleaned at a radiator shop.

[Ruffryder]

She is going to need new fuel tanks soon...

[jwagner]

Just a quick word off topic. We bought our 3288 last August and noticed a smell under way. I rebuilt the head, looked at the type of hoses used and determined the hoses were fine. Eventually found a leak in the holding tank that is now replaced. No more smell. Look closely at the base of the tank for any liquid. The crack in our tank was in the seam in the tank where it was not visible. The plastic of a 1991 tank becomes somewhat brittle over time. Our new tank is in which is a couple gallons larger than the previous with a clean-out added at the top of the tank. If you have any questions moving forward please ask...

All the best.