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Thinking about making rudder mods on my 38.-gctid790388

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    Thinking about making rudder mods on my 38.-gctid790388

    I need to do some major work on the bottom of my boat this winter and I'm thinking taking the rudders off will make it easier. So I'm thinking how can I throw more money into this hole in the water. One of our members with a 32MY increased the size of his rudders for better control. I got an estimate of about $1000 to extend the rudders 2" out and 2" down. Anyone who has driven a 38MY knows how sloppy the a$$ end can track, so I'm looking for opinions, will this help and are there cheaper alternatives? Thanks
    1989 3888
    Hino 210's

    #2
    I have the rudders off my 32XX , was going to take to the Machine shop to have brass added to them, then talked to a Alum boat builder, about bolting a pice of 3/8 alum the shape I want to one side of the rudders. will not look good but should work, if not I will unbolt the plate and nothing lost. I did glass a 2x6x10 ft on the round chime for roll control worked great,
    1988 3270
    135 hinos
    Seldovia ALASKA
    KEVINS UPHOLSTERY
    KEVINSBOATTOPS.COM
    Marine canvas/Upholstery
    since 1975

    Comment


      #3
      Marine hardware makes a bigger rudder that fits the stock configuration without any changes. I don't have it with me but their catalogue is at the paynes marine branch if your in Canada , surely available from most suppliers. I think I remember a thread on this from quite a while back .....
      1990 3888 Bayliner, Twin 351's

      Comment


        #4
        Do not add brass or aluminum to those bronze rudders, only bronze should be uses including the welding material.

        Electrolysis will result if the metal is different.

        Find a boat salvage yard and match up the shaft diameter, and an increased blade area.

        Keyways can be cut if needed, most are 11/4" or 1 1/2".

        You may be able to trade your old rudders in or sell them here or on ebay.
        Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

        Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
        Twin 350 GM power
        Located in Seward, AK
        Retired marine surveyor

        Comment


          #5
          I use aluminum anodes so I don't think adding aluminum to the rudders would work, the shop quoted about $2000 each for new rudders. What I really want to know if modifying the rudders will make a noticeable difference.
          1989 3888
          Hino 210's

          Comment


            #6
            If your worried about Pats input then use SS plate, I am going to use Alum. It will help control the boat going down big waves... it is not worth the 2K to use bronze to me, its a old boat. switch to Zinc
            1988 3270
            135 hinos
            Seldovia ALASKA
            KEVINS UPHOLSTERY
            KEVINSBOATTOPS.COM
            Marine canvas/Upholstery
            since 1975

            Comment


              #7
              "GearGuts" post=790419 wrote:
              Marine hardware makes a bigger rudder that fits the stock configuration without any changes. I don't have it with me but their catalogue is at the paynes marine branch if your in Canada , surely available from most suppliers. I think I remember a thread on this from quite a while back .....
              +1 on the factory made rudders. Marine hardware called them barn door rudders. I put some on my 3988 and they made a big difference. Bayliner kind of cheapskate out on the rudder size.

              To weld bronze to a rudder is extremely difficult to get to hold good and even harder to make it look good

              The entire rudder has to be super heated and the mig welded with bronze wire. Bronze absorbs heat so fast that it's almost impossible to get a good weld because as its welded it absorbs the heat away from the weld.

              I have done a few and it's my opinion that super heating isn't good for the bronze and could cause future corrosion problems as.it separates the homogeneous materials and brings them to the surface.

              A single cast barn door rudder would be a much better long term fix.
              1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge
              twin 454's
              MV Mar-Y-Sol
              1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop ocean express.
              Twin chevy 350's inboard
              Ben- Jamin
              spokane Washington

              Comment


                #8
                I wonder if one could use 2 thinner bronze plates one on each side of the rudder and rivet it on with heavy duty bronze rivets, or use a single plate and have it folded then rivet it on.

                Or something like this.

                I think I will investigate this idea since I will be out of the water in the late spring in Alaska installing tunnels.
                Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

                Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
                Twin 350 GM power
                Located in Seward, AK
                Retired marine surveyor

                Comment


                  #9
                  I extended my rudders by about 8" less than a year ago.

                  It has made a significant improvement to my low speed steerage (it now turns!!!), and the boat certainly responds quicker at planning speeds. .

                  Mine was an easy job, because the PO had glassed over the rudders (so that antifoul, instead of prop speed could be applied)

                  So all the boat builder did, was add 8" of plywood to the bottom of the bronze rudder, scarf the existing glass and fibreglassed over the whole lot.

                  I think it only cost me about 4 or 5 hundred dollars

                  It also makes sense to have a "weak spot" so that if the rudders do hit.... the plywood part should simply brake away instead of punching the shaft through the hull.

                  Comment


                    #10
                    "boatworkfl" post=790590 wrote:
                    I wonder if one could use 2 thinner bronze plates one on each side of the rudder and rivet it on with heavy duty bronze rivets, or use a single plate and have it folded then rivet it on.

                    Or something like this.

                    I think I will investigate this idea since I will be out of the water in the late spring in Alaska installing tunnels.
                    Really good idea Pat, could I not use ss plate?

                    I have been on the 38 in Seward that has 335hp 5.9 motors one hell of a hot rod, Scary as hell on a 19 knt plane running with the sea, point is all these old Bayliners need more rudder.
                    1988 3270
                    135 hinos
                    Seldovia ALASKA
                    KEVINS UPHOLSTERY
                    KEVINSBOATTOPS.COM
                    Marine canvas/Upholstery
                    since 1975

                    Comment


                      #11
                      "yachtman" post=790560 wrote:
                      "GearGuts" post=790419 wrote:
                      Marine hardware makes a bigger rudder that fits the stock configuration without any changes. I don't have it with me but their catalogue is at the paynes marine branch if your in Canada , surely available from most suppliers. I think I remember a thread on this from quite a while back .....
                      +1 on the factory made rudders. Marine hardware called them barn door rudders. I put some on my 3988 and they made a big difference. Bayliner kind of cheapskate out on the rudder size.

                      To weld bronze to a rudder is extremely difficult to get to hold good and even harder to make it look good

                      The entire rudder has to be super heated and the mig welded with bronze wire. Bronze absorbs heat so fast that it's almost impossible to get a good weld because as its welded it absorbs the heat away from the weld.

                      I have done a few and it's my opinion that super heating isn't good for the bronze and could cause future corrosion problems as.it separates the homogeneous materials and brings them to the surface.

                      A single cast barn door rudder would be a much better long term fix.
                      The shop said they would oxy/acetylene braze the additional material to the rudders, I'm going to try and source new rudders but I'm already dumping a whole lot of money in the boat this winter. I might just hold off until next year but it's good to know I'm not the only one who thinks these boats need way more rudder.
                      1989 3888
                      Hino 210's

                      Comment


                        #12
                        "ALASKAN ADVENTURER" post=790691 wrote:
                        "boatworkfl" post=790590 wrote:
                        I wonder if one could use 2 thinner bronze plates one on each side of the rudder and rivet it on with heavy duty bronze rivets, or use a single plate and have it folded then rivet it on.

                        Or something like this.

                        I think I will investigate this idea since I will be out of the water in the late spring in Alaska installing tunnels.
                        Really good idea Pat, could I not use ss plate?

                        I have been on the 38 in Seward that has 335hp 5.9 motors one hell of a hot rod, Scary as hell on a 19 knt plane running with the sea, point is all these old Bayliners need more rudder.
                        The wild Willy on D dock 3 slips down from mine D-9) has 2 300 hp Perkins diesels, that boat fly's.

                        How about 2 SS plates covering the whole bronze section of the rudders.

                        . I do not like having 2 different metals on the rudders because of electrolysis

                        I wonder how well a fiberglass full covering (no bronze showing) on the rudders would work..
                        Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

                        Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
                        Twin 350 GM power
                        Located in Seward, AK
                        Retired marine surveyor

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Adding to the rudders will make a big difference. When we had the 46' Chris Craft, I installed an auto pilot and it just didn't do the job. It couldn't hold a course.

                          I added maybe 4 inches (can't recall exactly how much) and the pilot worked perfect.

                          I had a piece of stainless bent at work. Just folded it over so it slipped over the rudder on both sides and bolted it on. Never a problem with it and I had that boat for 32 years.

                          Doug
                          Started boating 1955
                          Number of boats owned 32
                          Bayliners
                          2655
                          2755
                          2850
                          3870 presently owned
                          Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

                          Comment


                            #14
                            [quote]"dmcb" post=791027 wrote:
                            Adding to the rudders will make a big difference. When we had the 46' Chris Craft, I installed an auto pilot and it just didn't do the job. It couldn't hold a course.

                            I added maybe 4 inches (can't recall exactly how much) and the pilot worked perfect.

                            I had a piece of stainless bent at work. Just folded it over so it slipped over the rudder on both sides and bolted it on. Never a problem with it and I had that boat for 32 years.

                            Doug[/quo

                            Ya Doug , sounds like it should work just fine, the rudder shaft in these things are SS just like the prop shaft with Bronze props,

                            Side note, I am 100mi farther south than you or Pat, (St Pete) its still cold 59Deg at 5pm. Tampa Bay is 69deg and falling
                            1988 3270
                            135 hinos
                            Seldovia ALASKA
                            KEVINS UPHOLSTERY
                            KEVINSBOATTOPS.COM
                            Marine canvas/Upholstery
                            since 1975

                            Comment


                              #15
                              "dmcb" post=791027 wrote:
                              Adding to the rudders will make a big difference. When we had the 46' Chris Craft, I installed an auto pilot and it just didn't do the job. It couldn't hold a course.

                              I added maybe 4 inches (can't recall exactly how much) and the pilot worked perfect.

                              I had a piece of stainless bent at work. Just folded it over so it slipped over the rudder on both sides and bolted it on. Never a problem with it and I had that boat for 32 years.

                              Doug
                              I like comments where someone has already made the mod to whatever the subject may be.

                              Thanks, it gives me an idea.

                              Do you have the dimensions?

                              The reason I ask I just finished the mold for my FRP tunnels.
                              Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

                              Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
                              Twin 350 GM power
                              Located in Seward, AK
                              Retired marine surveyor

                              Comment

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