Caprail joints: caulking, sealing, varnishing...-gctid345760

[Bodie Seasoned Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bodie]

I'm refinishing my cockpit caprails and have stripped off all of the hardware and old varnish. I also cleaned out all of the butt joints between the teak planks:

[img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/648444=23936-IMG-20120113-00045.jpg[/img]The depth of the wide area either side of the actual joint varies, but at it's shallowest is about 1/16". My questions are:ÔÇóis 1/16" deep enough?ÔÇóshould I seal the joint surface with something before I apply the caulk?ÔÇóif so, what should I seal with: thinned varnish or CPES (or similar epoxy product)?ÔÇólastly, choice of caulk: originally I planned to use Boatlife Life-Calk, now I've read good things about Teak Decking System's SIS440

[boatworkfl Supporting Member Find all posts View Profile Close boatworkfl]

Bodie wrote:
I'm refinishing my cockpit caprails and have stripped off all of the hardware and old varnish. I also cleaned out all of the butt joints between the teak planks:

http://baylinerownersclub.org/media/....jpg[/img]The depth of the wide area either side of the actual joint varies, but at it's shallowest is about 1/16". My questions are:ÔÇóis 1/16" deep enough?ÔÇóshould I seal the joint surface with something before I apply the caulk?ÔÇóif so, what should I seal with: thinned varnish or CPES (or similar epoxy product)?ÔÇólastly, choice of caulk: originally I planned to use Boatlife Life-Calk, now I've read good things about Teak Decking System's SIS440

I use solvent based polyurethane to seal the wood, 3 coats, varnish will lift, the reson teak oil and varnish and other sealents lift is the moisture from under that will migrate through the wood.

[Fire Escape Supporting Member Find all posts View Profile Close Fire Escape]

When I redid mine, it seems that the joints were closer to 1/4" in depth. As I recall I used a SikaFlex 291. There are a number of options, I would Google teak deck calking. Jamestown Distributors has a number of products available as well. If I had mine to do over again, I would seal the wood first. I received advice to strip the wood and then calk. I carefully prepped the joints after sanding the cap rails. I masked them off, calked and then pulled up the tape when it was still wet. I used a solvent to clean up along the edges and found that the solvent calk mixture stained the teak. If I were to do it over, I would seal the wood first, then calk and let set up. Remove tape and sand after 24 hour set up time. I would then reseal and build up a finish with the product of choice.

[boatworkfl Supporting Member Find all posts View Profile Close boatworkfl]

I forgot to add that prior to caulking or sealing, wipt the teak with a solvent, acetone orks well, you need to remove the surface layer of oily wax that is a part of the natural wood, this will help produce a better grip on the wood for both the caulk and sealant.

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When I re-varnished the caprails on our 1990 3288 I used BoatLife LifeCaulk for the joints. I varnished the caprails before doing the joints so the areas to be caulked were varnished as well.

The bigger problem I had with previous re-varnishing the rails is that the underside of the rails was not sealed. The topside varnish held up pretty well but after two years it peeled off in sheets as water soaked through from the underside of the rails and lifted it off the teak. It could be argued that the teak was not properly prepared before applying the varnish but I believe it was water soaking through from the underside.

The first time I redid the caprails I pulled them off and varnished them on all sides to seal the bottom as well as the topside. This worked for a while but the topside varnish started to fail. The varnish started to peel off around the caulked joints then extended several inches toward the middle of the rails. It turns out that, on our boat, the rails are secured to the boat by screws inserted from the underside of the fiberglass. (yours looks like it is secured from the top with plugs in the screw holes). Where the screws were within a couple of inches of the ends of the rails the teak had split. The splits were sealed when the caprails were re-varnished. But when the screws were reinstalled to secure the caprails the cracks opened up and started to let water get into the teak, causing the varnish to fail from those cracks outward.

The last time I refinished the caprails I again pulled them off, stripped the varnish and then re-finished them. I filled in the screw holes and sealed up any cracks caused by the screws. I epoxied insert nuts into the underside of the caprails then sealed the complete undersides with epoxy. The topsides and edges were re-finished with multiple coats of varnish. With the insert nuts the caprails could be secured to the boat with machine screws rather than wood screws and hopefully avoid creating any cracks in the epoxy seal coating.

This last version of the refinishing has been on the boat for nine months and shows no sign of the deterioration that had occurred with prior re-finishings.

[boatworkfl Supporting Member Find all posts View Profile Close boatworkfl]

Pacific Sunset wrote:
When I re-varnished the caprails on our 1990 3288 I used BoatLife LifeCaulk for the joints. I varnished the caprails before doing the joints so the areas to be caulked were varnished as well.

The bigger problem I had with previous re-varnishing the rails is that the underside of the rails was not sealed. The topside varnish held up pretty well but after two years it peeled off in sheets as water soaked through from the underside of the rails and lifted it off the teak. It could be argued that the teak was not properly prepared before applying the varnish but I believe it was water soaking through from the underside.

The first time I redid the caprails I pulled them off and varnished them on all sides to seal the bottom as well as the topside. This worked for a while but the topside varnish started to fail. The varnish started to peel off around the caulked joints then extended several inches toward the middle of the rails. It turns out that, on our boat, the rails are secured to the boat by screws inserted from the underside of the fiberglass. (yours looks like it is secured from the top with plugs in the screw holes). Where the screws were within a couple of inches of the ends of the rails the teak had split. The splits were sealed when the caprails were re-varnished. But when the screws were reinstalled to secure the caprails the cracks opened up and started to let water get into the teak, causing the varnish to fail from those cracks outward.

The last time I refinished the caprails I again pulled them off, stripped the varnish and then re-finished them. I filled in the screw holes and sealed up any cracks caused by the screws. I epoxied insert nuts into the underside of the caprails then sealed the complete undersides with epoxy. The topsides and edges were re-finished with multiple coats of varnish. With the insert nuts the caprails could be secured to the boat with machine screws rather than wood screws and hopefully avoid creating any cracks in the epoxy seal coating.

This last version of the refinishing has been on the boat for nine months and shows no sign of the deterioration that had occurred with prior re-finishings.

Well done, Pat S.

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This is what I did with my teak cap rails.

They were shot. Split, downrigger mounting holes, pole holder holes, fresh water fill and mounted from the top and plugged. The teak was split in lots of places.

I got 5/4 teak to replace all of the cap teak. Used the old for a pattern and cut them. Used a router to cut spaces for the black Life Caulk I planned to use. Spent weeks finishing and varnishing. Two coats of Smith's penetrating epoxy on all sides. MAS epoxy has a video on the internet on how to use there product. It's thicker than Smith's but can be thinned. Can't remember is it's alcohol or acetone. Then more than 10 coats of Crystal varnish. The first was thinned by about 40%. Less thinning as the coats build up. Tried Scotch pads which didn't work very well. Ended up by just sanding with 200 grid between coats. It won't look good until about the 6th or 7th coat. I tried using a good brush. I couldn't get the finish I wanted. I read some place on the internet that the only way to get a really good finish was to spray. Used the thinner from the people who make Crystal varnish to thin about 10%. Lightly sand between coats and it turned out the way I wanted.

Well I found out why Bayliner used  teak on the caps. The fiberglass cap is not flat! Screwed mine down from the underside. I pain but less of a pain than drilling and plugging. Put moderate pressure on the screws. Waited a day in between and kept screwing the screws until the teak was flat. Looks like I would have been better off with mounting the teak before finishing. Getting the teak flat and sanding to have a flat finished surface between teak pieces. It didn't turn out bad. You would only notice it if someone mentioned it.

I moved the fresh water fill to the step on the starboard side. Kept the holes to a minimum. Longer rub strakes on the sides. Moved the original short ones to the rear. The only large holes are for the cleats.

Masked off the joints and caulked with black Life Caulk. At just the right time I removed the masking.

Mounted the support poles for the cockpit hard top and the Fish Cutting/Cockpit table.

I did this in 2006. Every spring I remove as much hardware as I can, sand with 200 grit and brush on a coat of 10% thinned Crystal varnish. Turns out as good as it was in 2006. The only con is after all these years I haven't master varnish and end up with holidays.

From all the research and reading I've done sun will bleach out the UV protection in varnish. I keep the varnished teak covered as much as possible. So it's a minimum of one coat a year.

Soap and fresh water to clean. I've found out that if you wipe the water off with a rag you will dull the varnish. If I'm not careful and want a good looking teak, I have to put another coat of varnish on mid season while using the boat.

[Bodie Seasoned Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bodie]

Great info everyone! Thanks. I had come to the same conclusion about moisture coming up from under the teak and causing some of the varnish to lift. There was also moisture getting under some of the fittings. I've removed all of the fittings, cleaned out all of the holes, removed all traces of varnish and caulk and left it for some time to dry. I don't have the time (maybe after I retire...) to remove all of the teak like some of you have done but don't want to see the varnish lift off in a year so I think I would like to put a couple of coats of CPES on first, in hopes that it will act as a barrier between any moisture coming up from below and the varnish on top.

So far I haven't had any luck finding this product at any retailers in the Sidney BC area, and although I was able to locate Smith & Co. on the internet, there doesn't seem to be any way to order the product directly from them. Given the time of year I would be looking for the Cold Weather Formula.

West Marine has a product called Penetrating Epoxy which is described as having a "clear amber" colour (bit of an oxymoron there) so it might work, if it can be brushed on. Anyone had any experience with this? Anyone know where Smith & Co's CPES can be found?

[boatworkfl Supporting Member Find all posts View Profile Close boatworkfl]

Bodie wrote:
Great info everyone! Thanks. I had come to the same conclusion about moisture coming up from under the teak and causing some of the varnish to lift. There was also moisture getting under some of the fittings. I've removed all of the fittings, cleaned out all of the holes, removed all traces of varnish and caulk and left it for some time to dry. I don't have the time (maybe after I retire...) to remove all of the teak like some of you have done but don't want to see the varnish lift off in a year so I think I would like to put a couple of coats of CPES on first, in hopes that it will act as a barrier between any moisture coming up from below and the varnish on top.

So far I haven't had any luck finding this product at any retailers in the Sidney BC area, and although I was able to locate Smith & Co. on the internet, there doesn't seem to be any way to order the product directly from them. Given the time of year I would be looking for the Cold Weather Formula.

West Marine has a product called Penetrating Epoxy which is described as having a "clear amber" colour (bit of an oxymoron there) so it might work, if it can be brushed on. Anyone had any experience with this? Anyone know where Smith & Co's CPES can be found?

There is a drain groove on the bottoms of most fittings, this is so if water gets in the rail and fitting it will drain and not freeze and split.

[TimeLess32 Frequent Contributor Find all posts View Profile Close TimeLess32]

Gordon

Good post, although after reading it I think I will just sell my boat........:kidding. What a lot of work! I only heard mention once on this forum of Sikkens products, i.e. Cetol. From what I've read in other posts that stuff is the cat's meow. I like a varnish finish but what a workout and re-varnishing requires almost as much prep. With Cetol you do a light sanding, apply and you're good for another year. I haven't tried it yet but I bought a can and I'm waiting for warmer weather.

Frank

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If you are going to replace the caprail, why not just use starboard. Good bye maintance.....more time for libations !!

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TimeLess32 wrote:
Gordon

Good post, although after reading it I think I will just sell my boat........:kidding. What a lot of work! I only heard mention once on this forum of Sikkens products, i.e. Cetol. From what I've read in other posts that stuff is the cat's meow. I like a varnish finish but what a workout and re-varnishing requires almost as much prep. With Cetol you do a light sanding, apply and you're good for another year. I haven't tried it yet but I bought a can and I'm waiting for warmer weather.

Frank

I don't think it matters with what product you use. They all take a light sanding when adding another coat. I think the light sanding to get a surface so the new coat will lay down flat on a smooth surface. More inportant is a machanical bond. After most finishes cure you can't get a chemical bond.

I tried Cetol on the last boat I owned. Removed the teak and sanded all the old finish off. Applied the recommended coats. It was nice but you couldn't see the wood as Cetol gets an orange tint after many coats. I was working on a cockpit cover and left the teak uncovered for two weeks in the fall. Toward the end of the two weeks the black mold started to apear. Needless to say I was not happy.

Since them Cetol has come out with a clear finish. I haven't tried it as I am happy with Crystal.

There is another product that was recommended to me. It's Z-Spar Paints: 2015 Flagship Varnish. It's suppose to have 6 times the UV protection of 1015 Captain's Varnish or other varnishs. I got a quart to use when I run out of Crystal.

On all the products you have to take care of scratches, chips and dings as soon as possible. This is to keep moisture/water from getting between the coats of the finish. Some people keep an old nail polish bottle filled with varnish to dab on the scratches, chips and dings.

[capt._ron Seasoned Member Find all posts View Profile Close capt._ron]

I sanded the caprail & used teak oil, clean & re-oil 2 or 3 times a year. I like the way it looks & I think it's easier to maintain.

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I do what Capt Ron does, easy and I like the looks.

Richard

38xx 175 Hinos NA

[Bodie Seasoned Member Find all posts View Profile Close Bodie]

An update: I wound up deciding to use Cetol Natural Teak (3 coats), followed by Cetol Marine Clear Gloss (3 coats so far). Mostly I made this decision as a result of learning that the previous owner had used Cetol and I wanted to be sure the colour of the areas I was refinishing would match the colour of the areas I'm not planning to refinish just yet. Colourwise, my plan worked...unfortunately, the gloss on the refinished areas is significantly higher than on the rest of the brightwork, so at the least, I'm going to have to add a coat of gloss to the rest of the brightwork.

I have left the caulking of the butt joints until now so that they will be well sealed before I caulk. After much research and a conversation with the technical department of Teak Decking Systems I have decided to use their product, SIS 440 Teak Deck Caulking.