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    Wires and batteries-gctid352583

    Well here it's me again collecting all the info is possible to start my project

    Wires inside of the boat I have a few plugs what I assume is for the shorepower but no inverter. So off course I need an inveter, wires n plugs.

    I am not living in that boat unless my wife catches me planning to run away from my inlaws lol...

    What size should I get? 1000w 1200w ? Tv, ps3, small microwave and what ever odd thing. I read a lot u guys talking about batteries and wires but lets kick the dead horse again.......

    what wires should be used from inverter to plugs? Or suppose to be inverter breaker plug?

    #2
    The smallest inverter I would put on a boat depending on the use is an 1800 watt continuous, 3000 watt surge, there are a lot of inexpensive units out there, read the inverter instructions and user ratings. I like running wire and outlets seperate from the AC system. I would use 12/3 marine ac wire to the plugs. The battery cable will depend upon the distance between the batteries and the inverter, there are charts for this.
    Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

    Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
    Twin 350 GM power
    Located in Seward, AK
    Retired marine surveyor

    Comment


      #3
      Size the loads for the inverter.

      My preference for an inverter is to stay on the lower power side.

      Inverters really, really suck when they fail. A high power inverter must vaporize (flame) LOTS of nickle before the smoke and flames abate. A smaller inverter has less nickle to vaporize.

      Comment


        #4
        There is no nickel or any metal in an inverter that will smolder or burn, most of the metal is copper inside, at the most with a surge a unit can cause an inverter smolder some untill the fuse or breaker trips, as per XANTREX technician.

        Wingless is correct in that you should not go larger than your needs for an inverter. 1800-2000 would be sufficient for what you expressed for your use.
        Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

        Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
        Twin 350 GM power
        Located in Seward, AK
        Retired marine surveyor

        Comment


          #5
          Alexirocz28 wrote:
          Well here it's me again collecting all the info is possible to start my project

          Wires inside of the boat I have a few plugs what I assume is for the shorepower but no inverter. So off course I need an inveter, wires n plugs.

          I am not living in that boat unless my wife catches me planning to run away from my inlaws lol...

          What size should I get? 1000w 1200w ? Tv, ps3, small microwave and what ever odd thing. I read a lot u guys talking about batteries and wires but lets kick the dead horse again.......

          what wires should be used from inverter to plugs? Or suppose to be inverter breaker plug?
          Check your BOC mail for a private message, Pat S.
          Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

          Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
          Twin 350 GM power
          Located in Seward, AK
          Retired marine surveyor

          Comment


            #6
            wingless wrote:
            Size the loads for the inverter.

            My preference for an inverter is to stay on the lower power side.

            Inverters really, really suck when they fail. A high power inverter must vaporize (flame) LOTS of nickle before the smoke and flames abate. A smaller inverter has less nickle to vaporize.
            boatworkfl wrote:
            There is no nickel or any metal in an inverter that will smolder or burn, most of the metal is copper inside, at the most with a surge a unit can cause an inverter smolder some untill the fuse or breaker trips, as per XANTREX technician.

            Wingless is correct in that you should not go larger than your needs for an inverter. 1800-2000 would be sufficient for what you expressed for your use.
            What http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemica...: <br /> metal is within the FET devices that vaporize in flames when the device fails to permit the high-current path failure flames and smoke to abate?

            Comment


              #7
              And here I thought would be as easy as building a house or rebuilding a car.....

              Ok....now you guys got a bit conserned....flames + boat = alex not very happy....

              I thought using the inverter besides the problem of destroing batteries and altenators for continuous use....

              Should use a generator for the heavier stuff and leave the inverter just for TV, radio, ps3, etc?

              Comment


                #8
                Inverters are rather inefficient at making 120 vac from 12 vdc.

                In order to have an efficient inverter system, you need to know your anticipated daily loads, the max size of your anticipated HLBB (house load battery bank), you'll want to know that taking the HLBB down below a 50% discharge is about MAX, and you'll want to know your max ability to charge the HLBB in a reasonable amount of time.

                If these do not align, you will have trouble.

                Side note: engine alternators cut the charge rate back rather quickly and are not good sources alone to re-charge a large HLBB.
                Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                Comment


                  #9
                  wingless wrote:
                  What http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemica...: <br /> metal is within the FET devices that vaporize in flames when the device fails to permit the high-current path failure flames and smoke to abate?
                  The circuit board is the only thing that should smoke, but if you have the proper fusable link that should not be much of an issue, Wingless I do knot know what kind of metal your refering to, please advise me of what metal you are refering to other than nickel, so I can be educated in the issue. You said nickel, call Xantrex tech. and get the same answer i did. I think you are too sensitive, it took me years to mellow out, but I have, I try to research what I post. Transisters are tin plated.

                  FET, FIELD EFFECT TRANSISTER, THESE ARE RATHER SMALL COMPONENTS: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Jt81LvxpDW2kew
                  Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

                  Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
                  Twin 350 GM power
                  Located in Seward, AK
                  Retired marine surveyor

                  Comment


                    #10
                    2850Bounty wrote:
                    Inverters are rather inefficient at making 120 vac from 12 vdc.

                    In order to have an efficient inverter system, you need to know your anticipated daily loads, the max size of your anticipated HLBB (house load battery bank), you'll want to know that taking the HLBB down below a 50% discharge is about MAX, and you'll want to know your max ability to charge the HLBB in a reasonable amount of time.

                    If these do not align, you will have trouble.

                    Side note: engine alternators cut the charge rate back rather quickly and are not good sources alone to re-charge a large HLBB.
                    What would be a good option to recharge the HBB?

                    I thought 3 deep cycle batteries for my HBB...was not something to be continuous use or the only power source... just in case we cant use the use the generator or the shore-power....wile we are boating and we want a meal or the kids of friends of ours wanna watch a movie wile we are on the go....

                    Comment


                      #11
                      boatworkfl wrote:
                      The circuit board is the only thing that should smoke, but if you have the proper fusable link that should not be much of an issue, Wingless I do knot know what kind of metal your refering to, please advise me of what metal you are refering to other than nickel, so I can be educated in the issue. You said nickel, call Xantrex tech. and get the same answer i did. I think you are too sensitive, it took me years to mellow out, but I have, I try to research what I post. Transisters are tin plated.

                      FET, FIELD EFFECT TRANSISTER, THESE ARE RATHER SMALL COMPONENTS: http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...Jt81LvxpDW2kew
                      You are sufficiently mellow. Good work.

                      The 2,000W inverter you've discussed has a 12VDC current path designed to pass over 200ADC continuously. That path is created using thick copper on the circuit board and wide traces on the circuit board. Those short-length traces go to the inverter FET devices. There are typically several identical FET devices connected in-parallel to handle the current.

                      The problem is that high-current paths are bad. By-design they must pass high-current, even under failure conditions.

                      My boat has four high-current circuits, one for each starter and one for the windlass. Those are safe, even under failure conditions. Those have mechanical contacts with springs to force open the contacts.

                      Not so with an electronic device. Most electronic devices fails in a shorted condition. All the inverter devices being discussed fail in a shorted condition.

                      When an inverter suffers a failure condition, the FET devices get hot. They get very, very hot. The FET devices are designed to pass the normal operation high current, as is everything else in the path to the battery. During a failure condition, the FET will overheat, the FET case will split open, the case crack will emit flame and smoke, the heat will damage the nearby components, including the circuit board, the circuit board will be charred.

                      The failure will be a prolonged event. (It will continue for what seems like forever.) It will continue until the nickle that is vapor deposited onto the silicone within the FET has finished vaporizing, as smoke and flame, escaping from the crack in the FET body. The circuit protection, the fuse or the circuit breaker, will not trip because this is a high current path and the failure current is very similar to the operating current.

                      Use the smallest inverter possible. Use alternative equipment so that the inverter capacity may remain low. Install the inverter by following ALL of the requirements. Follow every-single-requirement to the letter.

                      Comment


                        #12
                        First may I suggest that you learn about 12 volt systems before you begin to plan out your project. Here is a link to a very good website that will bring you up to speed slowly and then in part two take you through inverters. I have found this to be a valuable source of information and education to many.

                        http://www.marxrv.com/12volt/12volt.htm

                        Secondly, I would suggest that you plan out your power use. Start with what items you will be running and where. If they are to be plugged in then you will simply need outlets placed in places that are convenient to where you will use them. Outlets should be GFI protected. If you run more than one outlet on a single circuit only the first outlet need be a GFI.

                        Your outlets should be fed from a distribution panel. The number of breakers on the panel should be sufficient to feed all circuits. If one is to feed a microwave then it should be the only outlet on that circuit.

                        The power source should be two fold. First would be through the shorepower and the second would be through the inverter. All power should run through the invert to the distribution panel. The inverter should be equipped with a transfer switch internal that will sense when shorepower is not available and invert the 12dc power into 110ac power. The inverter should also be a full 3 stage charger to be able to charge your batteries in a reasonable time and properly.

                        I would recommend using 6volt golf cart batteries. These will provide you with the best resource for power on the house bank. Trying to charge a bank of deep cycle batteries that have been drained by an inverter to 50% takes a high rate charge at first, followed by a second stage at a lower rate and finally a trickle charge to top them off and maintain them when you are not using the boat.

                        I am not sure what you have on your boat but you need to be careful that you use proper protection of the circuits and gear. Please read the link that I have provided. It is written for RV's but the principle is the same.
                        Patrick and Patti
                        4588 Pilothouse 1991
                        12ft Endeavor RIB 2013
                        M/V "Paloma"
                        MMSI # 338142921

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Alexirocz28 wrote:
                          Well here it's me again collecting all the info is possible to start my project

                          Wires inside of the boat I have a few plugs what I assume is for the shorepower but no inverter. So off course I need an inveter, wires n plugs.

                          I am not living in that boat unless my wife catches me planning to run away from my inlaws lol...

                          What size should I get? 1000w 1200w ? Tv, ps3, small microwave and what ever odd thing. I read a lot u guys talking about batteries and wires but lets kick the dead horse again.......

                          what wires should be used from inverter to plugs? Or suppose to be inverter breaker plug?
                          Picture your day on the water.

                          In the morning you'll want (and probably the admiral) coffee. How will you make it? Boil water on the stove or BBQ or Electic coffee maker (110V).

                          Small coffee maker requires 50A (5 cups), large coffee maker requires 86A (12 cups).

                          How many other 110V devices will be on and for how long throughout the day?

                          TV maybe, DVD player?

                          Lighting, 15Ah per day (incandescent light bulb)

                          Fridge, 40Ah per day (this depends on how hot the day is)

                          Laptops (need to charge them), 5Ah per day

                          Stereo,

                          VHF Radio, 5Ah per day

                          GPS for anchor alarm, 5Ah per day

                          Coffee maker, 14Ah everytime you use it. As soon as coffee is done, we shut it off.

                          Water pump, 3Ah per day

                          Shower pump - if the admiral wants a quick show there is a pump for the water and a pump for the drain.

                          etc.

                          Once you think about what you want to do on the hook, you can figure out the possible loads.

                          Your fridge will use the most power in the day, unless you make lots of coffee.

                          I installed a Xantrex HF 1800 and 4 batteries (480Ah) which gets drained down to 200Ah after 5 days. I start the engine each morning for about 15 minutes to heat the water tank for admiral to shower. This puts more back into the batteries that she uses with the pumps. My average Ah usage per day is approx 70 to 75Ah without running the engine.

                          Why only 15 minutes? Cause the Alternator practicaly quits charging after 15 minutes and the water is very hot in the tank by that time. Running the engine any longer is taking more energy than your gaining in charging effort by a large factor.

                          I have also converted all my lighting to LED and have solar LED Anchor lights.

                          I decided against carring a small geny.

                          The link papa charlie mentions is a good start.

                          If you purchase an inverter/charger then you really need to get a battery monitor. This keeps track of your usage and tells you what is happening and makes it much easier to undestand your daily usage.

                          The group here on BOC helped me with this.

                          Here is my fridge running:



                          Coffee brewing (small coffee maker):


                          Comment


                            #14
                            Alexirocz28 wrote:
                            • 1 wrote:
                            • What would be a good option to recharge the HBB?
                            • I thought 3 deep cycle batteries for my HBB...
                            • was not something to be continuous use or the only power source...
                            • just in case we cant use the use the generator or the shore-power....
                            • while we are boating and we want a meal or the kids of friends of ours wanna watch a movie wile we are on the go....



                            • 1 wrote:
                            • A good O/B smart charger. The catch is, you need something to operate the charger from... could be S/P... could be a small generator.
                            • That, or pairs of 6 volt Deep Cycle golf cart batteries cabled in series, groups of two.
                            • Continuous or not, the discharge measured in Amp Hours is what you want to be concerned with.
                            • This is when you'll want to be the most conservative with your usage.

                              Batteries do not like to remain in a SOD for any great length of time. This is NOT to say "Don't Use Them".... by all means do... that's why we have them..... just be conservative when you do.

                              What kills our batteries is when discharged too deeply and/or left discharged for extended periods.

                              Perhaps read Harv's http://"http://www.baylinerownersclu... and Charging" thread in the BOC Library.
                            • The TV, radio, LED lights, etc, are not your big concern. Appliances (microwave for example) will be your concern.

                              Electric cook top and a WH will be out of the question for Inverter use.




                            Alex, Pat (post #12), Glen (post #13) and I are all suggesting that you plan this out by first learning what your daily loads may be and in Amp Hours.

                            Amp Hours is the only accurate means of determining this.

                            The daily load for each appliance (lighting included) can be calculated in Amp Hours close enough for this purpose.

                            Glen gives you some examples.

                            Remember.... this is Amp Hours... so the time duration must be factored into the calculation.

                            Take the Refrigerator for example:

                            Glen plugged in 40 Ah per day (this depends on how hot the day is)

                            If the frig requires 5 amps to run, that's 120 amp hours per 24 hour day.

                            Ahhhh, but... the frig cycles on/off!

                            If the frig operates only 1/3 of the time, 120 amp hours minus the 2/3's when not running = roughly 39.6 amp hours for the 24 hour period.

                            That's 39.6 amp hours that the HLBB will be down by in a 24 hour period, and just from the frig alone.

                            If the HLBB capacity is 400 AH, it's capacity is now 360.4 AH.

                            Now deduct for lighting, TV, Radio, pumps, etc. and whatever else you plan to use.

                            Note the recommended 50% max discharge suggestion and take this into account when you size your HLBB!

                            Now you'll want to figure out when the HLBB should be re-charged, and how you will re-charge it.

                            For the "when" part, you can't beat the http://"http://www.google.com/search...ex LINK system, of which tracks Amp Hours OUT and Amp Hours IN, (not voltage, per 'se).

                            At the touch of the screen, the LINK will show you where you are in terms of Amp Hour capacity.

                            For the "how" part, you'll want a good O/B Smart Charger, and a means of operating the Charger.

                            Shore power is a great means.... a generator is another means.

                            Or..... if you go on an outing, the engine alternator will contribute to this... just not as efficiently.... but will contribute given enough time!

                            This is another area where the Xantrex LINK is very useful in that even small charge rates will be calculated.

                            Unfortunately, Alex, there's no free or even cheap lunch when it comes to managing and using our HLBB's.

                            One way or another, we pay by somehow finding Amp Hours to replace the ones used.

                            Don't let this run you off....... it is doable and manageable! Many of us with cruisers are doing it!

                            .
                            Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                            2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                            Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                            Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                            Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

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