Renewable Diesel

[jra_4588]

The marina I have often used to fuel my former boat (gas powered SeaRay 350 Express Bridge) has started selling Neste Renewable Diesel for $4.59. States it is fine at 100% (not blended). As a fairly new owner of a 4588 (last February) I am wondering if I will have issues with the 1990 Hinos if I use this instead of fossil diesel.
Everything I read says it is completely compatible with marine diesel engines, I would like to know if anyone has been using this.

[Pcpete]

Welcome! I’ve never heard of renewable diesel, although a test pilot friend of mine is testing plant based jet fuel. They have been testing it with a 747 for several years.

[jra_4588]

From the website https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html
"Renewable diesel and biodiesel are not the same fuel. Renewable diesel is a hydrocarbon produced through various processes such as hydrotreating, gasification, pyrolysis, and other biochemical and thermochemical technologies. It meets ASTM D975 specification for petroleum diesel. Biodiesel is a mono-alkyl ester produced via transesterification. Biodiesel meets ASTM D6751 and is approved for blending with petroleum diesel."

Not to be confused with biodiesel. Also approved for use in California, which is important to me... 8)

Here is the manufacturer website: https://www.neste.com/products?gclid...iAAEgKrN_D_BwE

[Pcpete]

I didn’t think it was even a first cousin to biodiesel. There’s certainly some interesting research going on. On another note, Looking at your signature, you are either a glutton for punishment or a soft touch. Three times? Actually, it’s an education you can’t buy. Obtaining and motivating volunteers while spreading participation transferred directly to my work as did the public speaking, presentation creation and meeting organization. But really, three times?

[Metrodriver]

Renewable diesel... wonder how it gets renewed after it is burned.... a stupid name, but it is what it is. Bio diesel has been used for a long time. People with older diesel cars collect frying oil from restaurants, filter it and use it in their cars. Off course, same happens on a large scale wherefrying oil gets recycled.

Pete, if your 747 friend is located in the Puget Sound area, I would be interested in joining his company.

[tower3218]

Jim,
You must be talking about Pittsburg Marina. I fell into the same dilemma. I originally thought that renewable was the same as Biodiesel and after reading the warnings against Biodiesel, I stopped fueling up at Pittsburg. Not satisfied, I dug deeper and found that even though the raw ingredients are the same (plant based), the refining process is totally different. The major difference is that Biodiesel uses oxygen in it's process where Renewable does not. It's the oxygen that is impregnated in the Bio that promotes the growth of algae after time.
I finally bit the bullet this September and filled up with Renewable. It's still early, but so far so good. Also, when I filled up I still had 1/2 tanks of fossil diesel so I am not running on pure Renewable. Time will tell.
According to the literature, renewable is supposed to burn cleaner and produce less smoke. We'll see.

[smitty477]

Were it my boat and diesel engines I would wait untill there was a number of years of data available before adopting a newer fuel. Never have been a fan to be one of the 'sample testers' of newer technolgies with our own machinery or assets.
YMMV

[jra_4588]

Jim,
You must be talking about Pittsburg Marina. I fell into the same dilemma. I originally thought that renewable was the same as Biodiesel and after reading the warnings against Biodiesel, I stopped fueling up at Pittsburg. Not satisfied, I dug deeper and found that even though the raw ingredients are the same (plant based), the refining process is totally different. The major difference is that Biodiesel uses oxygen in it's process where Renewable does not. It's the oxygen that is impregnated in the Bio that promotes the growth of algae after time.
I finally bit the bullet this September and filled up with Renewable. It's still early, but so far so good. Also, when I filled up I still had 1/2 tanks of fossil diesel so I am not running on pure Renewable. Time will tell.
According to the literature, renewable is supposed to burn cleaner and produce less smoke. We'll see.

Yes, I was referring to Pittsburg. I did the same research. My tanks are also at 1/2. How many hours have you run since, and have you noticed anything?

[jra_4588]

Were it my boat and diesel engines I would wait untill there was a number of years of data available before adopting a newer fuel. Never have been a fan to be one of the 'sample testers' of newer technolgies with our own machinery or assets.
YMMV

Turns out it has been around for quite a while, just not publicized. The City and County of San Francisco switched to renewable diesel in 2015, reducing its fleet diesel greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent.
From an article (https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html ):
"Renewable diesel is a biomass-derived transportation fuel suitable for use in diesel engines. It meets the ASTM D975 specification for petroleum in the United States and EN 590 in Europe. Five plants produce renewable diesel in the United States, with a combined capacity of nearly 400 million gallons per year. Production is expected to grow in the coming years due to expansions at existing plants and the construction of new plants. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) does not report renewable diesel production; however, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) reports RFS RIN data, which indicates that the United States consumed over 900 milion gallons in 2019. Nearly all domestically produced and imported renewable diesel is used in California due to economic benefits under the Low Carbon Fuel Standard."
The mere fact that it is approved for use in California says a lot.

[tower3218]

We have put on about 20 - 25 hours since fill up and everything is running fine. Starts up at about 1/2 crank and has little cold start smoke. Still too early to for a definitive analysis, but looks encouraging.

[jra_4588]

I didn’t think it was even a first cousin to biodiesel. There’s certainly some interesting research going on. On another note, Looking at your signature, you are either a glutton for punishment or a soft touch. Three times? Actually, it’s an education you can’t buy. Obtaining and motivating volunteers while spreading participation transferred directly to my work as did the public speaking, presentation creation and meeting organization. But really, three times?

>> glutton for punishment or a soft touch
Actually both. The club has been through a lot, and we got down to the point where there was nobody to replace us as officers. We are looking at oblivion now... 🤒

[smitty477]

Turns out it has been around for quite a while, just not publicized. The City and County of San Francisco switched to renewable diesel in 2015, reducing its fleet diesel greenhouse gas emissions by 50 percent.
From an article (https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/emerging_hydrocarbon.html ):
"Renewable diesel is a biomass-derived transportation fuel suitable for use in diesel engines. It meets the ASTM D975 specification for petroleum in the United States and EN 590 in Europe. Five plants produce renewable diesel in the United States, with a combined capacity of nearly 400 million gallons per year. Production is expected to grow in the coming years due to expansions at existing plants and the construction of new plants. The U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA) does not report renewable diesel production; however, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) reports RFS RIN data, which indicates that the United States consumed over 900 milion gallons in 2019. Nearly all domestically produced and imported renewable diesel is used in California due to economic benefits under the Low Carbon Fuel Standard."
The mere fact that it is approved for use in California says a lot.

Are there any long term tests on engines with results from internal inspections or teardowns?

[Metrodriver]

The bigger question is how it holds up. If you burn through large quantities in a short time, you'll probably ok. Most boat diesels are a derivative of truck engines and should have no problems. But what if the fuel sits in the tank for a long time? Does it trap water, how about bacteria growth? I think for a boat that would be bigger issues than engine wear.

[Mad Manc]

The big thing with any fuel that replaces an oil based fuel is the effect on seals and moving parts (lubricity). I did quite a bit of investigation into replacement aircraft gas turbine fuels and making something that would burn properly was easy, making a fuel that allowed the fuel pumps and seals to survive was the trick - and this often required additives to be used. Bio fuels and other synthetic fuels also had a tendency to clean out the crud deposited by the oil based fuel in pipelines and, I assume, the crud would end up in filters at some point. If the renewable fuel meets ASTM standards its probably OK in terms of lubricity etc..You might want to check filters after using it in case it's "cleaned out " either the dock or your fuel system!

[jra_4588]

The bigger question is how it holds up. If you burn through large quantities in a short time, you'll probably ok. Most boat diesels are a derivative of truck engines and should have no problems. But what if the fuel sits in the tank for a long time? Does it trap water, how about bacteria growth? I think for a boat that would be bigger issues than engine wear.

From an article I found:
"One of the main issues with biodiesel is that transesterification (converting fats contained in oils into biodiesel) introduces oxygen into the fuel. That oxygen causes problems with the fuel’s freezing temperature, separation during storage, algae growth, and increased emissions. These factors must be taken into account when storing and burning the fuel. Biodiesel used in automobiles, trucks, and other non road engines emits more pollution into the environment than renewable diesel powered engines. Plus, biodiesel has shown to produce higher levels of nitrogen oxide (NOx), which can cause smog and acid rain.
Renewable diesel, on the other hand, does not contain any oxygen, meaning users do not have to worry about the storage and temperature issues associated with biodiesel. Even more important is that, due to hydrogenation, renewable diesel burns cleaner than both biodiesel and fossil fuel-based diesel."
From the company:
"Neste MY Renewable Diesel can be stored for extended periods without decisively changing its properties. Unlike biodiesel, Neste MY Renewable Diesel does not attract water, which means there is zero risk of product quality deterioration or microbial growth with proper handling and storage."

For us boat owners one of the principals of proper handling and storage of fuel is to keep your tanks full, especially in winter. This reduces "breathing" of moisture laden air caused by vapor expansion/contraction during day/night changes in temperature.
I have talked to one of my dock neighbors, he has been using the Neste product in his boat for 2 years (Cummins engines), and one of his friends who has a 4788 with Hinos has been using it for three years. Niether has had any issues.