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    #46
    Originally posted by infy View Post
    Yeah I only discovered that the oil pump won't work after warming up first. I'll try and see if I can find a fitting.

    Both port and starboard Racor replaced. Starboard has same secondary fuel filter as the part didn't come in on time. Port has a new secondary.

    Ok I'm a little stumped here. I got both engines more or less to safe temp.. idle for about an HR.. but the RPM I'm reaching in neutral are less than what I am able to reach under load?

    Revved port first.. reached max about 1.9k rpm. (This is the one that stalled twice under load and started this thread.)
    https://youtu.be/9ADnBzZXoWU
    ​​​​​
    Revved starboard side... Reached max 1.5k rpm. It reached 1,800 under load last time I was out.
    https://youtu.be/W9USyhrToYM

    ​​​
    I've read elsewhere these engines are rated for 400 horsepower at 2300 RPM. I should be able to reach at least 2,300.

    Reversed port/starboard fuel tanks. Same results.

    Opened both tank fuel caps. Same results
    ​​​​​​
    can't check for smoke unfortunately... It's night..

    i could use some ideas

    ​​​​​Bad fuel? Injectors? On a gas engine I can shut off a cylinder by pulling a plug lead.. not sure if there's an easy way to do that on a diesel.
    ​​​​​​

    i could use some ideas ….

    - do you have cable throttles?
    - can someone go down to the engine(s) and check that the throttles are hitting the high idle stops (engine off) when the helm s floored?
    - are you sure that your engines 2,300 rpm rating is for that engine in marine usage?
    - if your engines can reach 2,300 at high idle your WOT full throttle speed will be lower by about 150 rpm (droop = 60-70 pump rpm X2)
    - we need to know if the engine(s) smokes under load and if so which one
    - we need to know that the tachs are known accurate
    - how old is the fuel?
    As mentioned above , get a strobe tach for like $30 and you have a method to test at lower and higher rpm.
    You really need to supply much more data before randomly servicing or replacing parts.
    Northport NY

    Comment


      #47
      Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
      ....As mentioned above , get a strobe tach for like $30 and you have a method to test at lower and higher rpm.
      You really need to supply much more data before randomly servicing or replacing parts.
      infy:

      Once a strobe tach is used to determine actual RPM there a couple of things that may be done to the factory tachs to see if they improve:

      Dirty/Corroded Contacts
      The wiring harness uses molded connectors for the tachs. These are prone to corrosion. Take the connectors off and inspect them. Also, disconnect and connect them a few times to see if this helps. If not, cut the connectors off, splice ring terminals on the wires, and connect them to the tach terminal posts using brass nuts and washers.

      Calibrattion
      Some of the OEM (Faria) tachs have a calibration screw in the back. Sometimes its under a sticker. Use this, along with the readings from the strobe tach to calibrate them.

      Replacement Tachs
      Tachs for Diesel engines get their signals in different ways and you need to make sure any replacement tach that you purchase is compatible with your engines (I am not familiar with Hinos).
      • AC signal from the alternator - These are connected to a signal terminal on the alternator.
      • AC signal generator - Similar to above, but there's a dedicated AC signal generator, usually gear driven.
      • Magnetic Induction Signal - A sender generates a pulse that is used by the tach. These are usually in the flywheel bell housing. Cummins marine engines use this method.
      • Mechanical - Cable-driven tach (not very common)
      In my experience, stores like West Marine do not stock Diesel tachs.
      1999 3788, Cummins 270 "Freedom"
      2013 Boston Whaler 130 SS
      Anacortes, WA

      Comment


        #48
        I'll check for access to the flywheel. I'm pretty sure these tachs are based on the alternator.. I'll confirm. West Marine stocks the alternator style diesel tachs here locally. I may pick one up just to confirm that I'm getting RPM response across all the throttle positions. I can get that without worrying about calibration.

        My intent is to replace all the instruments eventually.. so a new tach isn't a big deal.


        Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
        - do you have cable throttles?
        - can someone go down to the engine(s) and check that the throttles are hitting the high idle stops (engine off) when the helm s floored?
        Feels like it. Starboard side is a little sticky too. I can put it at WOT and then check if it's resting at the stop. Good idea.
        Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
        - are you sure that your engines 2,300 rpm rating is for that engine in marine usage?
        Pretty sure.. I'll try and find the article again.
        Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
        - if your engines can reach 2,300 at high idle your WOT full throttle speed will be lower by about 150 rpm (droop = 60-70 pump rpm X2)
        - we need to know if the engine(s) smokes under load and if so which one
        I'll have to take it out for a run and see if changing filters solved the stall too.
        Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
        - we need to know that the tachs are known accurate
        - how old is the fuel?
        The fuel is the wildcard here. I have no idea. The diesel in the tanks is dyed red if that's any clue.

        First step is to inspect the tachometers and confirm readings.

        Another thing worth trying is getting fresh diesel in a jerry can.. Route a fuel line from the Racor filter to the jerry can and test rev it with new fuel in the system. I wouldn't be able to do this under way... just too sketchy having an open diesel container.

        I checked for a boost gauge plug for the turbos and couldn't find anything. I may have to drill one and tap it to get a reading. I'll look again first.

        Another thing I may try is removing the intercooler and inspect the fan blades and shaft play on the turbos... Just to be sure they're free and not loose.

        Could also be time for another compression test too..

        Comment


          #49
          Guys...

          Lets get back to the original symptom.

          One engine will not produce power above about 1800 RPM.

          Some of you guys have this poor gentleman taking apart his engine, very possibly introducing other issues as part of his troubleshooting.

          Even things like changing fuel filters can introduce problems, we all know that. With all of our great advice we might just create a situation where he has multiple problems, making disgnosis much more complicated.

          Right now the VERY first thing I would do is take off my air cleaner and look at my turbocharger. That involves ZERO risk. Stick your finger in and see if the blades turn freely. Eliminate that as a potential cause of the original symptom. His described symptom is exactly what I have seen with a Cummins 330 turbo failure, and checking would take 10 minutes, cost nothing and involve zero risk of screwing up his engine.

          Next step i would do is leave the aircleaner off and try again. Yes a soiled air cleaner can cause this. Again ZERO cost and ZERO risk to his engine.

          After that, and only after that I’d change fuel filters. That is a maintenance item, but it does involve risk. If he induces a air leak, he might just complicate his troubleshooting.

          I sure as hell would not change the oil, or take out the injectors, or do anything else until I did the easy stuff.

          KEVIN SANDERS
          4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA
          where are we right now​​​​​​???​

          https://share.findmespot.com/shared/...j23OquWOj2N3Xe

          Comment


            #50
            My intent is to replace all the instruments eventually.. so a new tach isn't a big deal.
            Everyone is trying to help solve your issues remotely which is always a huge task especially for someone new to diesels. With that limitation we typically rely solely on gage readings and other symptoms collected by the owner of the boat. In order to guess the best plan of attack it is very important that these remaining clues be as accurate as possible. In this case you do not have vacuum gages, nor EGT’s ,nor boost gages which leave these potential clues to go by.
            - rpm , are tachs accurate
            - engine temperature , are they working
            - lube oil gages, are they working
            - noises at start up and when loaded
            - smoke at start up and when loaded and the color (white, blue, black)
            - speed of the boat at various rpm , is the gages &/or GPS working



            Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
            - do you have cable throttles?
            - can someone go down to the engine(s) and check that the throttles are hitting the high idle stops (engine off) when the helm s floored?

            Feels like it. Starboard side is a little sticky too. I can put it at WOT and then check if it's resting at the stop. Good idea.
            There are many types of throttle controls we do not know which you have but in any case if the throttle bell crank on the engine is not progressing to full WOT when the controls are fully advanced then we will be chasing ghosts. We need to check this on the engine at the throttle stops on each engine to be sure they are fully advanced.
            Types of throttles include – cable, fully electronic, partially electronic, hydraulic, and mixed systems with auto syncs like glendenning.


            Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
            - are you sure that your engines 2,300 rpm rating is for that engine in marine usage?
            Pretty sure.. I'll try and find the article again.
            This is important because it sets the baseline for many other important enegine parameters. If your marine engine ratings for full load are 2,300 as stated then this is what we would expect from each engine:
            - 2,450 high idle minimum, this is an unloaded rpm reading taken briefly on a fully warmed up engine slowly advancing and retracting the throttle. If the engine is set for 2,450 at high idle then the governor will allow the engine to reach 2,300 when loaded.
            - 2,300 is the minimum engine rpm we want to see with a fully loaded boat on a hot a humid day with accurate tachs. When you can achieve this the boat is safe to run at various loads typically below 66% of full rating.
            - 2,370 to 2,400 (2,300 + 3-5%) this is the preferred rpm on a fully loaded boat for best practices safety margin as well as best efficiency.


            Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
            - if your engines can reach 2,300 at high idle your WOT full throttle speed will be lower by about 150 rpm (droop = 60-70 pump rpm X2)
            - we need to know if the engine(s) smokes under load and if so which one

            I'll have to take it out for a run and see if changing filters solved the stall too.
            All potential symptoms are important to notice and record such as smoke (color and when), noises, vibrations, temperatures, speeds (at what rpm), rpm and anything else out of the ordinary. I would often take digital photos of all of our gages at various rpm to set baselines for future use.


            Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
            - we need to know that the tachs are known accurate
            - how old is the fuel?

            The fuel is the wildcard here. I have no idea. The diesel in the tanks is dyed red if that's any clue.
            How long (hours) did it take those fuel filters you took out to load up?
            Could the fuel be 2 years old?
            Could the fuel be 3 years old?

            I checked for a boost gauge plug for the turbos and couldn't find anything. I may have to drill one and tap it to get a reading. I'll look again first.
            The exhaust elbow immediately after the turbo outlet (turbine) should have a ¼” pipe plug in one of the flanges , please look there. This is likely not necessary to initially trouble shoot your issues.

            Another thing I may try is removing the intercooler and inspect the fan blades and shaft play on the turbos... Just to be sure they're free and not loose.
            If you handle the turbine blades be sure that you do it very gingerly and only spin or load them lightly – if you do check for both radial and axial runout as well. Radial will likely be undetectable and axial should be minimal (0.005” or less).

            If you are black smoking we can revisit these turbo’s and some other items including:
            - air cleaner
            - after cooler inspection plate
            - preheat grate

            Since you are saying you cannot get full rpm even at a no load situation I doubt it is related to the turbos unless all of the rpm readings posted are erroneous.
            I know it may take some time but try and collect as many readings and symptoms as possible and repost your new and best collection of data fresh again so we are all on the same page.

            FWIW – earlier in this post or one of your others there were a couple of recommendations to have Earl look at your engines.
            In my opinion Earl has more knowledge and skills in his little finger than we all have collectively. If you will be boating for some time it is well worth having Earl down to identify dozens of issues and opportunities to enhance your engines and boating experience.
            These Hino engines are by far very robust and capable and when reasonable operated and maintained will give you countless hours of use.
            Northport NY

            Comment


            • Pcpete
              Pcpete commented
              Editing a comment
              Absolutely true about Earl. Without insulting every quality mechanic and tech out there, it’s really difficult for many to understand how knowledgeable Earl is. Think Rock Star. What’s more, he’s a really nice guy. If I were a young person interested in a good long time career, I’d try to apprentice under him not just for the direct knowledge, but also the business attitude.

            #51
            Back to the project after taking some time off for vacation and business travel.

            I removed the air box on Saturday to inspect the turbo as advised. The inlet is a little oily but there was no shaft play and the turbo spun freely. Doesn't look like there are any problems with the turbos themselves.


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            Comment


              #52
              Originally posted by smitty477 View Post
              How long (hours) did it take those fuel filters you took out to load up?
              Could the fuel be 2 years old?
              Could the fuel be 3 years old?
              I have no records for the fuel. Could be 10 years old

              Running it from a fresh aux tank may be a good idea. It may take a while to burn through the 400 or so gallons remaining in the tanks otherwise.

              Comment


              • TX H210 SS
                TX H210 SS commented
                Editing a comment
                I'm ignorant when it comes to diesels....but is it possible to pull a sample from that 400 gallon tank of fuel and have it checked? I wouldn't know how long or expensive that test may be, but better than guessing.

                Interesting thread and good luck...sounds like some good advice coming your way.

                The info I got from this thread allowed me to fix my diesel tractor and hope you get same results.

              #53
              https://www.dieselcraft.com/fuel-test-kits/

              I see there are several home diesel fuel test kits that are inexpensive....this was just a simpleton thought and maybe others can advise if these are worth trying in your situation....it does say one symptom of degraded diesel is lower rpm but they are also selling test kits
              2008 H210SS Four Winns
              Volvo Penta 5.7 GISX
              Prior: 1997 2050SS Bayliner
              Brad / Texas Gulf Coast

              Comment


                #54
                Originally posted by TX H210 SS View Post
                https://www.dieselcraft.com/fuel-test-kits/

                I see there are several home diesel fuel test kits that are inexpensive....this was just a simpleton thought and maybe others can advise if these are worth trying in your situation....it does say one symptom of degraded diesel is lower rpm but they are also selling test kits
                My plan right now is to just burn it all up. Even if I found the fuel is bad it would be a pain in the ass to try and get rid of it all. I don't know how you dispose of hundreds of gallons of diesel without a hassle.

                Comment


                  #55
                  Hey everyone great news! Took it out today for some power tests and it looks like the stall has been resolved. We were right on this being a fuel problem all along. I replaced the port Racor and secondary fuel filter. I also did an oil change but that wouldn't make a difference.


                  now that the engine doesn't stall when I give it the beans I took the time to watch the exhaust under power. You guys are right it is smoking under load.

                  I checked both turbos. They're free and spin. There is zero shaft play.

                  Both the air filters are in poor condition. Gummed up with oil. I think I'm going to go to an O'Reilly's or AutoZone and pick up a high performance automotive air filter to replace the current air box completely.

                  Comment


                    #56
                    The smoke starts visually at about 1600 RPM.

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                      #57
                      Get K&N’s. They are easy to wash out, spray with the oil and reinstall it.
                      P/C Pete
                      Edmonds Yacht Club (Commodore 1993)
                      1988 3818 "GLAUBEN”
                      Hino EH700 175 Onan MDKD Genset
                      MMSI 367770440

                      Comment


                        #58
                        Until you verify the rpm's the engines are actually turning with an electronic tach, changing anything is just maintenance at this point. If it was me, I'd warm up the engines and then go down to the engine room and verify the WOT rpm attainable. Disconnect the ball and socket throttle cable at the governor and manually move it to WOT position and retest. Only needs to be a few seconds and won't hurt the engine. High idle tests don't require much boost or fuel flow and verify governor settings. Then run it at the known WOT and have someone at the helm mark the position of the dash tachs. That will give you an idea of the tach mismatch from actual rpm's. Then take it out for a speed test and repeat the tests.
                        From the pictures I'm guessing you are now getting close to rated rpm's as you're up on plane and have a good clean wake. If you were actually running the engines 500 rpm below WOT I wouldn't think it would be up on plane. Make sure the bottom is clean, the boat isn't overloaded. Boost pressure would be nice but only gives you a reference port to starboard without knowing original design boost specs. Clean air filters, clean aftercoolers will all affect boost pressure, so inspection may be warranted.

                        James
                        1989 Bayliner 3888, 175 Hinos,
                        Hurth 630's Onan 8kw MDKD
                        Lowrance Electronics!
                        Boating on Georgian Bay & the North Channel
                        Completed the Great Loop 07/25/19
                        AGLCA #8340
                        MTOA# 7469

                        Comment


                          #59
                          Got new air filters on. They look great! But it's still showing that smoke when approaching 2k RPM.

                          It also occurs to me that the smoke (pictured in attachments above) could be just normal water vapor from combustion? What do you guys think? Is it too much smoke from twin 8 liter V6 diesels near WOT?

                          I have no experience with this type of engine or boat as a baseline. I know that if I send my car (gasoline 4.4 twin turbo V8) I'll have extra water vapor out the tailpipe.

                          Comment


                            #60
                            Originally posted by MacPhid View Post
                            Until you verify the rpm's the engines are actually turning with an electronic tach, changing anything is just maintenance at this point.
                            I'm working on completely replacing the instruments and installing digital tachometers and sensors. Should have accurate RPM readings soon

                            Comment


                            • Pcpete
                              Pcpete commented
                              Editing a comment
                              I might be interested in your tachs. What kind of digital are you looking at?
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