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    Warning, Rant to follow.-gctid348140

    As my search for a larger boat lingers on I am beginning to see why the boat market is soft...and why I may just stick with what I have.

    1) Asking if a survey is available is a perfectly legitimate question. If one is not available just say so.

    2) Asking if there are any known issues is also a legitimate question. It lets a potential buyer know if it is worth investing in a survey. By just telling me to get a survey done, sorry, you just lost a potential customer...in a down market. Slick move ace.

    3) Do not treat a potential customer as an idiot. I can use the internet and have a very good idea of the available options on a given boat (better than most of the sales people I have encountered). Don't tell me a boat was not available with I/O's when 30% of the units available on the market are equipped that way.

    4) Do not, under any circumstances, ask me if I afford a boat. Let the bank determine that! Oh and BTW 90% chance this is an all cash deal, so you tell me, can I afford it?

    More to follow, I'm sure. :drama
    Phil, Vicky, Ashleigh & Sydney
    1998 3055 Ciera
    (yes, a 1998)
    Previous boat: 1993 3055
    Dream boat: 70' Azimut or Astondoa 72
    Sea Doo XP
    Sea Doo GTI SE
    Life is short. Boats are cool.
    The family that plays together stays together.
    Vice Commodore: Bellevue Yacht Club

    #2
    I have bought boats from dealers and 1 thru a broker (14) total

    we have bought two houses and sold one.

    I have owned 12 vehicles in my life.

    I cannot use: realtor/salesman or " finance person" in the same sentence with the word

    "professional".

    One salesdummy was talking down to me with Bravo Sierra, while I was standing there with a "Licensed Master" hat on. The question i asked was what does it weigh? todetermine ifSUV would tow it.

    Realtors: get the listing so someone else will sell it

    Boat salespeople: ex-car sales

    The finance person tries to sell you a ripoff extended warranty. Heres a away to have some fun with them: Ask how much one cost which doesn't break down? thats because you just told me the car/boat I am wanting to buy is going to break down.....Use your imagination to expand on it/
    Captharv 2001 2452
    "When the draft of your boat exceeds the depth of water, you are aground"

    Comment


      #3
      We just spent a year and a half searching for a boat which ended in October. I know what you mean. Lying, cheating, SOB's for sure. We got pretty good at asking questions to determine if a boat was worth our time to drive and look at it. Too often we were disappointed and wondering if the owner or broker had actually heard our questions. One boat we drove three hours to see after grueling the broker on the phone. Walked up to it and refused to go a board. What a piece of crap. Guy had the nerve to ask why I didn't want to go aboard and then to say if I didn't like that one he could show me others much more expensive by the way. I just said we were leaving he asked why and I told him that I was doing all that I could to restrain myself from picking him up and throwing him to the fishes. When he started to talk again I just said don't in about as firm a voice as I could and walked off.

      There are some great deals out there but you earn them by having to go through a whole lot of crap to get there.
      Patrick and Patti
      4588 Pilothouse 1991
      12ft Endeavor RIB 2013
      M/V "Paloma"
      MMSI # 338142921

      Comment


        #4
        The seller should have a current survey, the buyer should if after a visual want to buy the boat, then the buyer should get his own survey it will be needed for the financial institution.

        Never trust the sellers survey, and get a mechanical survey, what you see is not always what you want!!!
        Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

        Bayliner 3870 "ALASKA33)
        Twin 350 GM power
        Located in Seward, AK
        Retired marine surveyor

        Comment


          #5
          As for the survey by seller. I disagree. I have never had one available and never offered one. That is the responsibility of the buyer not the seller. Besides as indicated by another poster, you never want to trust the sellers survey anyway.

          You need to follow a couple of rules. First, go over the boat with a fine tooth comb. You have been boating for a while you have some idea of what to look for. Second, if you like the boat make an offer. If accepted then you need to go on sea trials. You can learn a lot on the sea trials. Then if all is still well have the survey. If again all is well, finish the deal. Never purchased a boat any other way except when I purchased my 35 Ericson but that was from an insurance company.
          Patrick and Patti
          4588 Pilothouse 1991
          12ft Endeavor RIB 2013
          M/V "Paloma"
          MMSI # 338142921

          Comment


            #6
            I would get my own survey done, but if a seller had one that would tell me that there were confident that their boat was well maintained.
            Phil, Vicky, Ashleigh & Sydney
            1998 3055 Ciera
            (yes, a 1998)
            Previous boat: 1993 3055
            Dream boat: 70' Azimut or Astondoa 72
            Sea Doo XP
            Sea Doo GTI SE
            Life is short. Boats are cool.
            The family that plays together stays together.
            Vice Commodore: Bellevue Yacht Club

            Comment


              #7
              I had a seller once fax me a current survey of his boat. This made my decision to drive and see the boat a little easier. His price was a little high so no deal but at least I had a pretty decent idea what I was getting into.

              Comment


                #8
                itsabowtime2 wrote:
                1) Asking if a survey is available is a perfectly legitimate question. If one is not available just say so.
                Why would you ask a seller that? A survey is the responsibility of the buyer. Even if they did have one, it would likely only be for financing or insurance and little value to you.

                itsabowtime2 wrote:
                2) Asking if there are any known issues is also a legitimate question. It lets a potential buyer know if it is worth investing in a survey. By just telling me to get a survey done, sorry, you just lost a potential customer...in a down market. Slick move ace.
                I would have said the same. I'd be expecting you to evaluate the boat yourself or pay for a survey. If it had known issues, I'd be fixing them, or telling you about it.
                Custom CNC Design And Dash Panels

                iBoatNW

                1980 CHB Europa 42 Trawler- "Honey Badger"

                Comment


                  #9
                  itsabowtime2 wrote:
                  As my search for a larger boat lingers on I am beginning to see why the boat market is soft...and why I may just stick with what I have.

                  1) Asking if a survey is available is a perfectly legitimate question. If one is not available just say so.

                  2) Asking if there are any known issues is also a legitimate question. It lets a potential buyer know if it is worth investing in a survey. By just telling me to get a survey done, sorry, you just lost a potential customer...in a down market. Slick move ace.

                  3) Do not treat a potential customer as an idiot. I can use the internet and have a very good idea of the available options on a given boat (better than most of the sales people I have encountered). Don't tell me a boat was not available with I/O's when 30% of the units available on the market are equipped that way.

                  4) Do not, under any circumstances, ask me if I afford a boat. Let the bank determine that! Oh and BTW 90% chance this is an all cash deal, so you tell me, can I afford it?

                  More to follow, I'm sure. :drama
                  Actually those are very legitimate questions, and ones I asked of pretty much every broker I talked to.

                  I went one further...

                  I told the brokers that I didn't want to waste his or my time and that I thought the actual selling price for this model was XXX give or take some (on a good condition 4788 that number was 200-225K).

                  I asked the brokers if they knew of any bars to the seller entertaining an offer in that range, like if he was upside down, or had refused a similar offer recently.

                  Most brokers seemd to like that approach. Some came right out and told me that the owner owed X for the boat and could not afford to go lower. Of course some tried to argue, but most were pretty good about it.

                  You cannot of course go by a owners survey, but it can be a useful tool, especially for finding out everything a boat has for extras, something not all brokers take the time to do thoroughly.

                  As to the known issues, several brokers told me that a certain boat had a "dated" interior, or could use a good cleaning, stuff like that.

                  One boat I called on a 1970's meridian was described as "perfect in every way" along with his impression that rarely a boat comes on the market in such good shape. I called two days after the listing hit yachtworld and the broker told me that his description did not do the boat justice, and sorry but it sold already for the asking price (around $130K)

                  KEVIN SANDERS
                  4788 LISAS WAY - SEWARD ALASKA
                  www.transferswitch4less.com

                  where are we right now?

                  https://maps.findmespot.com/s/36S4

                  Comment


                    #10
                    Always those sales guys are to blame! Never the prospect customers I have met. When looking good at them I always saw little white wings and above their heads was a strange white lighted ring.

                    But believe me one of the nastiest things for a sales guy, is putting a lot of effort in a sale and than to find out that the customer can't pay the deal.

                    And be aware that in most cases you and the sales meet each other mostly for the first time and you don't know any thing about him and he about you.

                    As a prospect buyer try to get all the info about a dealer or a broker first! It's an important matter and don't go to the cheap way only. We have a lot of examples of that here at BOC over the years. A $ 500 is better than a $ 1000 repair.

                    If you buy new you get a warranty if you buy used you have to believe what blue eyes is telling. But even brand new boats can have hidden problems.

                    To avoid a lot of misery a good survey of the boat is just as important than how nice the boat looks. Over here we have a very big organisation that do the survey for boats and cars. If the boat is in the water it must go out to control water intrusion and the keel for damage. Always there is a fierce engine inspection. The rapports they issue give you the most security about the boat you can get. They also give you the overall value of the boat. If I would sell my boat I would have them to do a survey on my boat. Good for the prospect buyer and good for me as I can if needed repair unknown and unseen faults and defects.. But you can also buy a boat with the escape written on the order form that there is no deal in case of a too bad survey. No rant mentioned!

                    Comment


                      #11
                      Always those sales guys are to blame! Never the prospect customers I have met. When looking good at them I always saw little white wings coming out of their backs and above their heads was a strange white lighted ring. Legitimate questions? Goes that for the seller too?

                      But believe me one of the nastiest things for a sales guy, is putting a lot of effort in a sale and than to find out that the customer can't pay the deal.

                      And be aware that in most cases you and the sales meet each other mostly for the first time. So you don't know any thing about him and he about you.

                      As a prospect buyer try to get all the info about a dealer or a broker first! It's an important matter and don't go to the cheap way only. We have a lot of examples of that here at BOC over the years. A $ 500 for a survey is better than a $ 1000 repair.

                      If you buy new you get a warranty if you buy used you have to believe what blue eyes is telling. But even brand new boats can have hidden problems.

                      To avoid a lot of misery a good survey of the boat is just as important than how nice the boat looks. Over here we have a very big organization that do the survey for boats and cars. If the boat is in the water it must go out to control water intrusion and the keel for damage. Always there is a fierce engine inspection. The rapports they issue give you the most security about the boat you can get. They also give you the overall value of the boat. If I would sell my boat I would have them to do a survey on my boat. Good for the prospect buyer and good for me as I can if needed repair unknown and unseen faults and defects. But I can't understand that there is no organization with that authority in the US. But you can also buy a boat with the escape written on the order form that there is no deal in case of a too bad survey. No rant mentioned! Just some advice

                      Comment


                        #12
                        When I was looking for boats I found most of the brokers and sales people to be arrogant asses. Many it was like they were trying to not sell the boat, lack of knowledge, poor taken care of boat, FULL crap tank on shore??!??! wow the stuff I heard from them.

                        Look it over VERY carefully, get it surveyed if you need to. John gave me, a copy of his survey when I asked if he had one, no problem. A good seller give you info about everything known wrong with the boat as other have said. I knew everything wrong with my boat when I bought it and we fixed it all up. My finance company didnt accept johns survey that was a few years old, so I had to get a new one.

                        Its a pita tbh, fun for me though I love to haggle

                        Comment


                          #13
                          Not all surveyors are created equal. You need to find an surveyor experienced with the brand and model of boat your getting a survey on. Surveyor should be recommended by somebody who doesn't have a iron in the fire. When I bought my current boat when we hauled her out there were 50 or 60 blisters on the bottom. Not a big deal but the owner had a barrier job done 9 years earlier and was surprised and worried that would make a issue or negotiate a lower price. Very cleverly he suggest we have lunch. When we returned 45 minutes later the boat was back in the water. Fortunately I had checked the rudders, cutlass bearings and props before leaving. The owner was a long time customer of the yard and retired local water cop. The surveyor a recommendation of the broker. I went ahead with the purchase because I had spent an enormous time looking this boat over and had actually made an offer and paid for a full survey including mechanical on a California boat that needed more work than I was willing to do. So I had spent a lot of time learning about this model and brand of boat. I really felt like there was a little collusion between everyone involved. I wanted the boat bad enough to go ahead with the purchase and so far it's worked out. I had spent two years looking for the right boat and during that time I gained a lot of knowledge about these older trawlers. I think you should go ahead and look these boats over because the knowledge you gain will help you pick a really good boat. Information about repairs and or common problems observed between the same model boats will educate and maybe you'll learn enough to to make a good purchase. You might even discover the boat you've set your heart on isn't the right model. My advice is to take your time and really educate yourself so that when you look at a boat you know more about the model that the broker selling it. Things like owner upgrades may not be an upgrade for your use. When I bought my 4788 the first owner had installed a great bow thruster. Upgrade, not for me, because when he did he removed the 100 gallon bow tank leaving me 70 gallons of water. Not only that but the dedicated battery charge was wired directly to the master state room outlet. Why was that a problem? the only way to get rid of the annoying sound of the battery charger was to shut the breaker of to master state room. If I had know more about the 4788 this would have been a deal breaker for me. My point is, take your time and make a educated purchase.

                          Comment


                            #14
                            A few thoughts after doing this for too long and learning each lesson the hard way.....

                            - In general you will continue to be disappointed by brokers untill you change your expectations

                            - In used boat sales you are purchasing the previous onwer as well as the boat , especially true with larger boats

                            - Surveyors skills vary at least as much as those of carpenters , plumbers, machanics ,etc

                            - Even a very good surveyor is not intimate with each model boat

                            In the end it is best if you are well prepared with a detailed list of what you want in a boat befoe you see it and compare that to what you see at the inspection.

                            You can also use that as a beginning of a list for each item you want inspected and comented on as a result of the survey.

                            Meeting the owner and asking questions of him as well as the suyrveyor ahead of time is an investment that will pay off.

                            Hope this helps
                            Northport NY

                            Comment


                              #15
                              Why would you ask a seller that? A survey is the responsibility of the buyer. Even if they did have one, it would likely only be for financing or insurance and little value to you.
                              It is of huge value and you always ask. If they have one, they are part of the 5% who do, making it more likely that the guy isn't a screwball. Even if you're going to do your own survey, you at least know what to expect so you know whether to even go see it, and where to start with an offer pending your own survey.

                              I would have said the same. I'd be expecting you to evaluate the boat yourself or pay for a survey. If it had known issues, I'd be fixing them, or telling you about it.
                              Again a standard question that all the experts tell you to ask. I always ask, and I've always been asked. Most offer forms include something for this because it actually is legally binding if you fail to disclose known problems.

                              As far as dealing with brokers, I've not found all the problems posted by others, but have found a bit of laziness with some. On the other hand the broker in my marina is a hustler, quick to serve, and not greedy (he's given me free mechanic time and more). My biggest annoyances have been with seller-owners. Most are idiots. No other word, complete idiots. Like the guy selling his boat for well over book/comps as "perfect." Find it tied up in the dumbest way possible with lines just twisted around cleats 20 times, bilge full of rusty water, and vinyl falling apart. He said it had a 350HP motor, but it turned out to be a carbed 305 which is like 230 or so. The boat made 18 MPH top speed and he said that's normal for a cruiser and they never go faster.

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