Recent Survey 89 3870

[Dixiediver]

Hello to all,

I am looking at a 1989 Bayliner 3870 with twin Hino 175 hp engines (1,1000 hrs) The boat was surveyed by a SAMS/ABYC surveyor this past week end. I have just received the report and would like input from those with more knowledge than myself. Three things on the report that concerned me were 1)Findings-"Elevated moisture discovered in various stringers, ribs, bulkheads, transom and members" Recommendations-"Replace as/when needed. Dehumidify, ventilate thoroughly, and monitor in the near term." 2) Findings- "The starboard transmission appeared to have excessive noise." Recommendations-" Recommended to change the transmission fluid and monitor." and 3) Port engine reached 2,750 RPM and the Starboard 2,500 at full throttle. I have owned and maintained various boats over the years the last being a 32 ft deck boat, so this is much more boat than I have had experience with in the past. I realize there is a lot to learn about this type of boat. My wife and I are close to retirement and have always dreamed of owning and cruising in this type of vessel. I am cautiously excited about the possible purchase of this boat and any input would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Les

[Norton_Rider]

1)Findings-"Elevated moisture discovered in various stringers, ribs, bulkheads, transom and members" Recommendations-"Replace as/when needed. Dehumidify, ventilate thoroughly, and monitor in the near term."

Moisture meters do not always detect whether there's moisture or not. I recommend that you talk to the seller or broker and ask if they are willing to have an experienced fiberglass tech sample the core by drilling.

As an example, my marina neighbor, and an ex-member of this forum, was selling his Bayliner 36. The buyer's surveyor wrote up moisture in a number of areas. The boat owner paid for a fiberglass tech to drill, take samples, and reseal the holes. Of the 5 or 6 areas that the surveyor wrote up, only one had wet wood. He had the fiberglass guy repair that section. The sale went through once the buyer got the report from the fiberglass tech.

[Jim_Gandee]

Les,

The report is not very clear regarding the "elevated moisture in various stringers etc". Where exactly? That's a huge red flag to me! To confirm moisture the areas can be drilled and the actual wood samples examined. This is important as repair will be expensive!

The nature of the 630 transmissions is the growl in gear at idle due to uneven power impulses of the engines. The noise should instantly disappear above about 800 rpm +-. Some have reported noise reduction by replacing the drive plates in the trans, others not so much. When I sea trailed my 89 almost six years ago I was shocked at the noise but my mechanic, who was very familiar with the 38 series and whom I trusted, shook his head and said normal for the animal don't worry.

Regarding the RPM's, each engine should make WOT (wide open throttle) of at least 3000 RPM when in gear and running. There's a lot of things that will cause the reduction you have reported: engines need tuning, low compression, restricted fuel flow, throttle cables mis- adjusted- not reaching stop, excessive growth on hull, trim tabs not working or mis-adjusted and in the end you may find you need to re-pitch your props. First step is to verify actual WOT RPM with a laser tach vs the ships tachs.

Of the three issues the biggest concern to me would be the stringer moisture. Suggest you get a good determinination on a exactly what you're up against there. If the stringers were actually wet I'd personally pass that boat on by. The other issues can usually be reasonably addressed. YMMV.

[smitty477]

"Jim Gandee" post=828388 wrote:
Les,

The report is not very clear regarding the "elevated moisture in various stringers etc". Where exactly? That's a huge red flag to me! To confirm moisture the areas can be drilled and the actual wood samples examined. This is important as repair will be expensive!

The nature of the 630 transmissions is the growl in gear at idle due to uneven power impulses of the engines. The noise should instantly disappear above about 800 rpm +-. Some have reported noise reduction by replacing the drive plates in the trans, others not so much. When I sea trailed my 89 almost six years ago I was shocked at the noise but my mechanic, who was very familiar with the 38 series and whom I trusted, shook his head and said normal for the animal don't worry.

Regarding the RPM's, each engine should make WOT (wide open throttle) of at least 3000 RPM when in gear and running. There's a lot of things that will cause the reduction you have reported: engines need tuning, low compression, restricted fuel flow, throttle cables mis- adjusted- not reaching stop, excessive growth on hull, trim tabs not working or mis-adjusted and in the end you may find you need to re-pitch your props. First step is to verify actual WOT RPM with a laser tach vs the ships tachs.

Of the three issues the biggest concern to me would be the stringer moisture. Suggest you get a good determinination on a exactly what you're up against there. If the stringers were actually wet I'd personally pass that boat on by. The other issues can usually be reasonably addressed. YMMV.

IMHO - this is a great repines I agree 100%.

BTW - when someone says this....

"1)Findings-"Elevated moisture discovered in various stringers, ribs, bulkheads, transom and members" "

They are basically saying nothing. There are no details as to the exact locations or issues nor is there any backup as to the extent of how the potential situation was determined.

If I know nothing else about this boat or this surveyor I would have to guess that this is just a "cover your butt" statement that can and likely is found on all of his/her surveys.

[smitty477]

There are a number of good reads on moisture in hulls , here is just one of them .....

http://www.pcmarinesurveys.com/Moisture%20meter%20mythology.htm

[canoel]

That is exactly what I thought when I read it Smitty. Surveyor is being very vague to cover his butt.

If they really want to sell, they should have no problem with core samples being taken.

The noisy transmission could be a few things. The least likely is a bad transmission. Most likely idle speed to low, or props that are not clean or possibly knicked. The Hinos will also sometimes cause the transmissions to rattle if the valves are out of adjustment.

Some further information regarding the rpms would be helpful. Has the bottom been cleaned recently? How much extra weight, gear, does the boat have a tender, hardtop etc etc. It should reach 3000 rpm with a freshly cleaned bottom. Even after a few months in the water I notice our speed and rpm drop.

[smitty477]

Noisy stb transmission at low speed -

Not well known to the pleasure boater bit pretty well known fact to folks in the industry like mechanics, surveyors and brokers.

The stb side Hurth will show gear chatter with both 4 and 6 cyl engines at speeds lower than about 900-950 rpm.

These issues have been described in the Hurth TSB's as well as their FAQ;s for years now and some of them even call out the Bayliners as examples.

This situation is hardly ever related to a larger problem is its just gear chatter and not something else. The exact problem is caused by the limited power pulses along the 360 degrees of crank rotation at lower speeds.

So ....

- does it only happen on stb side

- does it only happen in gear at low speeds

- do you have accurate tachs

- does it happen below 900-950 rpm

- does it clear up above 950 rpm

Let me see if I can attach the FAQ's or the TSB here to this post....

[smitty477]

Maybe now?....

[CptCrunchie]

That sounds like you have Velvet Drives for transmissions. One of the Velvet Drives on my Chris had a grumbling noise at low speeds. Mechanic said some have that, but he wasn't worried about it. Used it that way for 5 years without a problem.

[boatworkfl]

I have a moisture meter and I also tap with a small plastic hammer, a very slight tap can tell you almost as much as a moisture meter.

If you know of a spot that has moisture try it out, then try other areas.

[smitty477]

"boatworkfl" post=828428 wrote:
I have a moisture meter and I also tap with a small plastic hammer, a very slight tap can tell you almost as much as a moisture meter.

If you know of a spot that has moisture try it out, then try other areas.

You have been trained as a surveyor and have the tools and experience with moisture meters and tapping hulls.

So what are your thoughts on a statement such as this from a surveyor please?

"1)Findings-"Elevated moisture discovered in various stringers, ribs, bulkheads, transom and members" Recommendations-"Replace as/when needed. Dehumidify, ventilate thoroughly, and monitor in the near term.""

[sketch96]

After going through a full transom and stringer rebuild on a 95 bayliner 2859 the quality of the glasswork from the factory was terrible. This boat is a 89? I would say that for sure there is moisture in the transom and stringers. The way that bayliner seals around the garboard drain is terrible. Lots of crevasses in the wood work for water to work its way around and the stringers are not sealed where the meet the transom so water will work its way along under the motor. I would bet money that any bayliner over 10 years old has moisture ingress to some degree in the transom and stringers. How much and how far its gone depends alot on whether the boat is moored year round or trailered after every trip.

Being a 1989. I would bet money its got water in the transom and stringers. Big job to fix properly. I would do a bit more "exploration" especially around the garboard drain. On my boat there was almost no fibreglass around the drain. It was nicely covered with gelcoat only.

Bayliner was about quantity not quality. Especially the older ones. Be aware.

[canoel]

"sketch96" post=828433 wrote:
After going through a full transom and stringer rebuild on a 95 bayliner 2859 the quality of the glasswork from the factory was terrible. This boat is a 89? I would say that for sure there is moisture in the transom and stringers. The way that bayliner seals around the garboard drain is terrible. Lots of crevasses in the wood work for water to work its way around and the stringers are not sealed where the meet the transom so water will work its way along under the motor. I would bet money that any bayliner over 10 years old has moisture ingress to some degree in the transom and stringers. How much and how far its gone depends alot on whether the boat is moored year round or trailered after every trip.

Being a 1989. I would bet money its got water in the transom and stringers. Big job to fix properly. I would do a bit more "exploration" especially around the garboard drain. On my boat there was almost no fibreglass around the drain. It was nicely covered with gelcoat only.

Bayliner was about quantity not quality. Especially the older ones. Be aware.

[color]blue wrote:
With the smaller Bayliners this may be true. The Motoryacht series are completely different story. They are very well built and rarely have issues even though some are nearly 40 years old.[/color]

[smitty477]

"canoel" post=828434 wrote:

"sketch96" post=828433 wrote:
After going through a full transom and stringer rebuild on a 95 bayliner 2859 the quality of the glasswork from the factory was terrible. This boat is a 89? I would say that for sure there is moisture in the transom and stringers. The way that bayliner seals around the garboard drain is terrible. Lots of crevasses in the wood work for water to work its way around and the stringers are not sealed where the meet the transom so water will work its way along under the motor. I would bet money that any bayliner over 10 years old has moisture ingress to some degree in the transom and stringers. How much and how far its gone depends alot on whether the boat is moored year round or trailered after every trip.

Being a 1989. I would bet money its got water in the transom and stringers. Big job to fix properly. I would do a bit more "exploration" especially around the garboard drain. On my boat there was almost no fibreglass around the drain. It was nicely covered with gelcoat only.

Bayliner was about quantity not quality. Especially the older ones. Be aware.

[color]blue wrote:
With the smaller Bayliners this may be true. The Motoryacht series are completely different story. They are very well built and rarely have issues even though some are nearly 40 years old.[/color]

Yes - that is my experience as well . In addition to that the one I owned and the other two I was very familiar with being friendly with the owners none of them had a garboard drain plug.

[Pcpete]

Plus one on canoel. My brother in law worked at Bayliner in Arlington , WA laminating the yacht hulls. As we were buying our 3818 he told me about how robust the fiberglass making up the stringers is. My surveyor also noted the possibility of moisture in the stringers and I have tapped very carefully to find the area he noted. I should have had him mark it because I'm not finding a thing. As to the transmission noise, hurth trannys are built a bit loose. When you add the loping tendency of the hino, they can sound like the transmission is full of rocks at 800 rpm in gear. By 900, the sound should go away. Mike at Harbor Marine in Everett, WA is the go to guy on this subject.