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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    6v of course... or atleast according to the posts

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  • Alaskanmutt
    replied
    Gotcha,

    Like I thought I was trying to over think it.

    The Suzuki only puts out 480 watts charge output.

    Would you suggest a couple 6v deep cycle batteries wired in series or 1 large sized battery like the Catapiller D4 class?

    Leave a comment:


  • SomeSailor
    replied
    Simplest solution is a combiner. It won't leave you stranded if your "switch management" gets ahead of you.

    They can be had for less than the cost of a good battery.

    Leave a comment:


  • 2850Bounty
    replied
    Alaskanmutt wrote:
    1... Batt 1 would be the one is reserve.

    2... This is for a 93 2002 so space is limited on the battery compartments, I was actually thinking on running larger main cables and relocating everything to the Starboard side behind the panel next to the helm. This would place the weight on the starboard side which would help correct that annoying port lean while underway plus it would help offset the weight of the heavier 4 stroke outboard.

    3... Yep the thing I am trying to avoid is drawing them down too low. One of my duties on board the USCGC Tamaroa was maintaining the Starting Batteries. 14 8 volt locomotive batteries. Had to change them once. And that was enough, 375 pounds each.

    This is the main reason I asked, as my wife says I tend to over think things (or is it I have to do things "special"?)

    I will check out the Xantrex (thought you said xanax at first, really? did he just tell me I need to calm down?)
    1..... I'm not certain which one you are calling Batt #1, the top left????

    If top left, that would be Batt #1 but only on MBSS #1.

    As you can see, you'll also have a Batt #1 on MBSS #2.

    Is this beginning to sound like Abbot and Costello's "Who's on First?"



    2... aren't there some hydraulic pot pullers that use an engine mounted P/S pump?

    3... Regarding one large bank -vs- several smaller banks, take a look at this again, and see if this makes sense.

    I'm using even and simple numbers, and a 50% max discharge:

    (A).... 100 daily amp hours removed from a 400 amp hour bank = a 25% discharge, of which is rather safe.

    (B)..... 100 daily amp hours removed from a 200 amp hour bank = a 50% discharge, of which is right at the border.

    If you have two or three separate banks like "B", then you risk drawing them each down below a safe level, whereas if you configure this as in "A", the likelihood is reduced.

    None-the-less, your charging requirements are about the same, you just lesson the potential for damaging these batteries.

    Scenario "A" could be accomplished with one MBSS.

    Here's another way to look at it, and using different numbers...., but it doesn't necessarily solve an Amp Hour capacity issue.

    Let's say that your daily pot pulling requires 400 amp hours (I have no idea what the number would actually be).

    Let's say that each of the three pot puller batteries are 225 amp hour capacity.

    Let's say that you pull 133 amp hours from each of the three pot puller batteries one at time (that's if you can monitor each battery).

    (133 amp hours X's 3 = roughly 400 amp hours, or your total daily pot puller load).

    133 amp hours from a 225 amp hour battery leaves a remaining 92 amp hours, of which is well below a 50% max discharge.

    Now group these three batteries together, and you have 675 amp hour capacity.

    400 pot puller amp hours removed from a 675 Amp Hour bank, still leaves only 275 amp hours (the math is the same; 3 x's 92 = 276), but this is all occuring within one battery bank!

    It sounds counter-intuitive at first glance, doesn't it?

    Ah, but see if this makes sense:
    • one large bank may be much easier to manage.
    • one Xantrex LINK battery monitor takes care of this entire bank.
    • you're not trying to outguess where each bank is re; Amp Hour capacity.
    • you're not randomly switching between banks.
    • one MBSS now does the trick.
    • the charging process begins with all three batteries, not one at a time.
    • the charing related chemistry begins to change within all three batteries simultaneously, rather than individually.
    • one battery does not accidentally go without re-charging.




    If my logic is flawed, I'll certainly welcome any input from everyone and anyone who has chimed in on this thread. I may be wrong!

    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Alaskanmutt
    replied
    Batt 1 would be the one is reserve.

    This is for a 93 2002 so space is limited on the battery compartments, I was actually thinking on running larger main cables and relocating everything to the Starboard side behind the panel next to the helm. This would place the weight on the starboard side which would help correct that annoying port lean while underway plus it would help offset the weight of the heavier 4 stroke outboard.

    Yep the thing I am trying to avoid is drawing them down too low. One of my duties on board the USCGC Tamaroa was maintaining the Starting Batteries. 14 8 volt locomotive batteries. Had to change them once. And that was enough, 375 pounds each.

    This is the main reason I asked, as my wife says I tend to over think things (or is it I have to do things "special"?)

    I will check out the Xantrex (thought you said xanax at first, really? did he just tell me I need to calm down?)

    Leave a comment:


  • 2850Bounty
    replied
    Flash Jorden wrote:
    Awesome! Thanks for the info. The engine was supposedly rebuilt a couple of years before I bought the boat last April. I wonder which starter they used. I'll most def look into the starter now.
    Jorden, just an FYI re; the starter motor. There are some of these that use a nylon ring gear in the reduction set.

    If you call Richard @ Seamanufacturing in Florida, he can fix you up with an all steel reduction gear motor.

    BTW, MBSS = main battery selector switch (OFF/#1/BOTH/#2).

    BS = battery switch (OFF/ON)

    Alaskanmutt wrote:
    The Box labelled Eng was for the outboard engine.

    [COLOR]#0000FF wrote:
    OK... I wasn't sure what that was for. Same basic rules/guidelines should apply. [/COLOR]

    What I am thinking is.... I now have 2 batteries, both the same. Used for starting the engine, running the electronics etc. PLUS I run a electric shrimp pot puller, I haul up from 700 to 800 feet each pull 2 sets of pots. When running the puller I tend to place the battery switch in the Both position.

    [COLOR]#0000FF wrote:
    Well, here's my question for you: Where is your redundancy when you do this?

    IOW, which battery are you keeping in "reserve" for cranking your engine????

    Harv occasionally posts his joke: "Have you ever tried to rope start a 5.7L V-8?"

    Glad to hear that you can pull start your O/B. [/COLOR]

    I have pulled with just one battery and it wore it down pretty quick. (7 - 10 minutes each pull)

    [COLOR]#0000FF wrote:
    This is why you need one large dedicated bank instead of multiple banks, IMO. [/COLOR]

    I would like to have a third battery in reserve for those "oh crap, I killed my batteries" monents.

    [COLOR]#0000FF wrote:
    Again, this is why you want to keep a cranking bank separate and in "reserve"! Yes/No??

    [/COLOR]

    Besides, can you never have enough battery power???????

    [COLOR]#0000FF wrote:
    Yep! But it does not necessarily need to be scattered about in the form of multiple battery banks.

    Pulling wet cell batteries down much bellow 50% causes them to cycle more deeply.

    These batteries have a finite number of cycles to offer over their life span.

    The deeper the discharge, and the longer that they are left in this SOC, the bigger the hit they take.

    Group these into one large bank, and you'll be less ilkey to exceed the 50%.

    Just a thought.

    Sounds like you would benefit from a Xantrex LINK battery monitoring system.

    The LINK will keep track of Amp Hours, of which are more meaningful.
    [/COLOR]

    Leave a comment:


  • Alaskanmutt
    replied
    The Box labelled Eng was for the outboard engine.

    What I am thinking is.... I now have 2 batteries, both the same. Used for starting the engine, running the electronics etc. PLUS I run a electric shrimp pot puller, I haul up from 700 to 800 feet each pull 2 sets of pots. When running the puller I tend to place the battery switch in the Both position. I have pulled with just one battery and it wore it down pretty quick. (7 - 10 minutes each pull) luckily I had the other battery isolated so it wasn't a big deal. I run my boat out of Whittier Alaska in Prince William Sound, generally up to 90 miles from port. And I spend from 1-5 days out fishing, sight seeing, sitting on the hook doing nothing. I have pull started my engine exactly once just to prove I could do it. It wasn't as much fun as you would think.

    I would like to have a third battery in reserve for those "oh crap, I killed my batteries" monents.

    Besides, can you never have enough battery power???????

    Leave a comment:


  • 2850Bounty
    replied
    Alaskanmutt, I have a few questions regarding your proposed schematic:

    Where is your POS Supply to the engine starter motor where the hull harness and engine harness interface occurs?

    Are you wanting to isolate all four battery banks?

    Just an FYI: for good redundancy we want each bank to take it's Negative to the System Negative Common ( I.E., the Engine Block) independantly of one another.

    IMO, your four bank scenario is over-kill, and you are not disciplining yourself in that you must become familiar with keeping your #1 Cranking Bank held in Reserve!

    That's a Key Point regarding manual battery management.

    A dead HLBB means no lights, no AM/FM radio, no inverter, or no ?????, but a Dead Cranking Bank that has not been held on Reserve, is a bummer.

    Secondly, by separating your otherwise LARGE HLBB into two smaller banks, you have effectively reduced amp hour capacity, of which effectively increases the odds of drawing the HLBB down below a safe level of discharge.

    Using even simple numbers and a 50% discharge max:

    100 daily amp hours removed from a 400 amp hour bank = a 25% discharge, of which is rather safe.

    100 daily amp hours removed from a 200 amp hour bank = a 50% discharge, of which is right at the border.

    Attached files [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/652388=24522-Alaskanmut battery switching 2.jpg[/img]

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  • Alaskanmutt
    replied
    I want to change my battery set up. What I want is a starting battery, a seperate house battery, and a seperate emergency oh poop I left the toaster oven on battery Right now I have 2 batteries with the 1, 2, 1 & 2 off switch. What I want is shown with SW 1 being just a 1, 2 switch and SW 2 being the 1, 2, 1 & 2 switch. I was an Electricians Mate in the Coast Guard, I remember most of what I learned (heck, I installed110 v outlets on each side of my leather couch so the wife could plug in her electric snuggle blankets and lamps)

    Here is a drawing of what I am thinking (yea I do sometimes over think stuff too) Does any of the members here see something to fault that I am missing?

    Attached files [img]/media/kunena/attachments/vb/652355=24512-Battery Layout.jpg[/img]

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    johnrupp wrote:
    Ah, the engineer in you got it. For an electric motor to increase in speed, the voltage must be increased to overcome the effects of "counter EMF".

    Now back to the boat. As a previous poster said, if a new properly sized battery is not cranking the engine over fast enough you probably have a bad connection, to small size of battery cable or a starter motor going bad.
    Gotcha!

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  • johnrupp
    replied
    Flash Jorden wrote:
    That might be the issue, and I'll have to look into that. My thought process, based on experiences with battery issues in my car and motorcycles, is that having 1 or 2 fully charged batteries connected in parallel (boosted via jumper cables) will not make a starter spin any faster, just "stronger/harder". The only way to make an electric motor spin faster (i.e. starter motor) is to increase the voltage, by connecting batteries in series (commonly done on high compression ratio bike engines). Boosting increases the amperage, not the voltage-Jorden
    Ah, the engineer in you got it. For an electric motor to increase in speed, the voltage must be increased to overcome the effects of "counter EMF".

    Now back to the boat. As a previous poster said, if a new properly sized battery is not cranking the engine over fast enough you probably have a bad connection, to small size of battery cable or a starter motor going bad.

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    2850Bounty wrote:
    HTGR/PMGR means high torque gear reduction or permanent magnet gear reduction.

    These are smaller motors, they spin the armature faster, then reduce this giving them more torque at the pinion gear, and consequently more engine cranking rpm.

    1987 Bayliner 5L OMC

    You have a 168 tooth flywheel.

    This is the motor that replaces your old outdated Non-Reduction starter motor.



    No OEM today is using anything but the HTGR/PMGR starter motors.

    .
    Awesome! Thanks for the info. The engine was supposedly rebuilt a couple of years before I bought the boat last April. I wonder which starter they used. I'll most def look into the starter now.

    -Jorden

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  • 2850Bounty
    replied
    HTGR/PMGR means high torque gear reduction or permanent magnet gear reduction.

    These are smaller motors, they spin the armature faster, then reduce this giving them more torque at the pinion gear, and consequently more engine cranking rpm.

    1987 Bayliner 5L OMC

    You have a 168 tooth flywheel.

    This is the motor that replaces your old outdated Non-Reduction starter motor.



    No OEM today is using anything but the HTGR/PMGR starter motors.

    .

    Leave a comment:


  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    2850Bounty wrote:
    NO... BOTH/ALL combine battery banks!

    However, and IMOO, you are better off to allow the charge unit (O/B Charger or Engine Alternator) to sense these batteries individually by NOT being on BOTH/ALL...... Again... IMHOO.

    .
    Sorry, I should have been more specific. That is exactly what I was thinking. When the engine is running, and the alternator is supplying charge back to the batteries, if the HBSS is on "BOTH/ALL" should I have an Isolator to prevent the alternator from "seeing" both of the batteries. Of course the simple fix to to not have the HBSS on BOTH/ALL when the engine is running.

    2850Bounty wrote:


    Isolators are old school technology by today's standards and offer a .7 voltage drop.

    The Blue Seas ACR or the BEP VSR is the way to go.
    Thanks, I'll look into those.

    -Jorden

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  • Guest's Avatar
    Guest replied
    MidnightSun wrote:
    Sounds more like a tired old starter that needs replacement or maybe just some connection that need to be tightened IMHO. If you can't crank normally on a new dual purpose something is amiss. By boosting, you are combining the boost battery to the available source which will give you much more than just the boost battery alone.
    That might be the issue, and I'll have to look into that. My thought process, based on experiences with battery issues in my car and motorcycles, is that having 1 or 2 fully charged batteries connected in parallel (boosted via jumper cables) will not make a starter spin any faster, just "stronger/harder". The only way to make an electric motor spin faster (i.e. starter motor) is to increase the voltage, by connecting batteries in series (commonly done on high compression ratio bike engines). Boosting increases the amperage, not the voltage.

    So based on what I had been seeing, DC battery (fully charged) = slower crank speed. Auto battery = faster crank speed. There must be enough of a difference in their manufacture that allows an auto battery to deliver more energy instantly than a DC battery, as CaptHarv stated in his article.

    In any case, I'll keep looking into it. I'm sure I'm making this more complicated then I have to. It's the engineer in me ...

    -Jorden

    Leave a comment:

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