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    #31
    Flash Jorden wrote:
    CaptHarv, any thoughts on Dual Purpose batteries? Supossedly the best/better of both worlds.

    -Jorden

    captharv wrote:
    read the article
    I had already read it twice, found it very informative. Now a third time. Sorry to seem blind or dense or both, but I'm not seeing a reference to Dual Purpose batteries in the article. Saw the references to the two main battery types "Starting" and "Deep Cycle", but not Dual purpose.

    -Jorden

    Comment


      #32
      Excellents points, Hans, and I don't think that any popcorn is necessary!

      Although I tend to refer to any #1 Starting/Cranking Bank as though it's being held in "reserve", I think that we're saying the same thing, just different terminology I suppose.

      I too crank my Stbd Engine on my HLBB of multiple Deep Cycles..... actually a bank of 6 volt CG's. (my stbd engine does not have a dedicated cranking bank)

      Cranking on multiples seems to be OK, unlike the wise suggestion of NOT cranking on a single Deep Cycle battery.

      Hans make perfect sense with his reference to; "inverter being asked to deliver 300+ amps to power a toaster for 5+ mins continuos yet to power a starter with similar power draw for a 5-6 second startup"

      I believe that the "Key" to this is Multiple Deep Cycle batteries!

      Also helps to have quick firing engines, and perhaps today's HTGR/PMGR starter motors that crank a bit faster and draw a tad bit less battery power.

      The HTGR/PMGR starter motor's armature turns approx 3 x's the rpm of a non-Gear Reduction starter motor. Through the reduction these end up spinning the flywheel a bit faster.

      How is that related to batteries???? A start-up requires less Amps!

      The Blue Seas ACR is a great idea also. BEP offers a VSR (voltage sensing relay) that does same.

      .
      Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
      2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
      Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
      Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
      Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

      Comment


        #33
        Flash Jorden wrote:
        .... but I'm not seeing a reference to Dual Purpose batteries in the article. Saw the references to the two main battery types "Starting" and "Deep Cycle", [SIZE]4 wrote:
        but not Dual purpose.[/SIZE]
        Jorden, I can't speak for Capt'n Harv, but it may be because Harv also sees "Dual Purpose" like I see the Enduro Motorcycle.

        It ain't no off-road/moto-cross bike..... and it ain't no street bike.

        Ya want a dirt bike.... then buy a dirt bike.

        Ya wanna street bike.... then buy a street bike.

        .
        Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
        2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
        Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
        Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
        Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

        Comment


          #34
          2850Bounty wrote:
          Jorden, I can't speak for Capt'n Harv, but it may be because Harv also sees "Dual Purpose" like I see the Enduro Motorcycle.

          It ain't no off-road/moto-cross bike..... and it ain't no street bike.

          Ya want a dirt bike.... then buy a dirt bike.

          Ya wanna street bike.... then buy a street bike.

          .
          That's cool, and you're probably right. Was just looking for the "official" word on it from him (since I bought one a few months ago), but as you pointed out, I'm probably just not seeing the forest for the trees.

          -Jorden

          Comment


            #35
            Jorden, A pair of DP batteries with a 1-2-Both switch will serve your bowrider just fine. It is the kind of boat they are designed for. Plenty of CCA's to start your engine and able to handle a couple hundred moderate discharges. Most bowriders have a lite house load, radio, anchor light etc. When you get into cruisers it becomes more important to have a dedicated house bank "deep cell" and engine bank "starting" as the house loads greatly increase, DC fridge, interior lighting, TV. inverter uses etc.
            John Rupp
            1989 2455 Ciera Sunbridge
            5.8 OMC Cobra

            1989 3288
            Starshine
            Hino 135

            Comment


              #36
              In the article I mentioned that deep cycle marine batteries are not true deep cycle batteries. A true deep cycle battery would not have enough current capacity to start an engine without doing itself harm. So, the marine deep cycle batteries are made sort of somewhat halfway inbetween starting and deep cycle. They are what some manufacturers call dual purpose. Example: Delco voyagers, Sears Die hard dual purpose whatever its called.

              Thge reason behind this is if they were a true DC batteries, somebody would forget and try tpo crank the engine and ruin the battery. The manufacturer would have to replace it under warranty.

              I did a project of highway call boxes. The lights, transmitter and receiver worked off a true deep cycle battery, charged by a solar panel system. The battery was rated at 110 AH at 5 amps. The battery had a conspicuous warning label stating the maximum current is 9 amps. I called the manufacturer and got the info about high current ruining them, and the manufacturer put a 10 amp fuse under the label to protect themselves against false warranty claims.

              On my last boat, hade 2 voyagers in parallel for the ships battery. I got 7 years out of them. We had no generator and they ran the fridge, lights, TV, stareo while at anchor overnight and sometimes for two days and night.

              I now use golf carts for teh ship battery and have a starting battery isolated out.

              You know what? The GC batteries crank the engine faster than the 900 MCA starting battery does.

              Theres somthing to say about having two batteries in series with a total of 140# of lead in them.....
              Captharv 2001 2452
              "When the draft of your boat exceeds the depth of water, you are aground"

              Comment


                #37
                In the article I mentioned that deep cycle marine batteries are not true deep cycle batteries. A true deep cycle battery would not have enough current capacity to start an engine without doing itself harm. So, the marine deep cycle batteries are made sort of somewhat halfway inbetween starting and deep cycle. They are what some manufacturers call dual purpose. Example: Delco voyagers, Sears Die hard dual purpose whatever its called.

                Thge reason behind this is if they were a true DC batteries, somebody would forget and try tpo crank the engine and ruin the battery. The manufacturer would have to replace it under warranty.

                I did a project of highway call boxes. The lights, transmitter and receiver worked off a true deep cycle battery, charged by a solar panel system. The battery was rated at 110 AH at 5 amps. The battery had a conspicuous warning label stating the maximum current is 9 amps. I called the manufacturer and got the info about high current ruining them, and the manufacturer put a 10 amp fuse under the label to protect themselves against false warranty claims.

                On my last boat, hade 2 voyagers in parallel for the ships battery. I got 7 years out of them. We had no generator and they ran the fridge, lights, TV, stareo while at anchor overnight and sometimes for two days and night.

                I now use golf carts for teh ship battery and have a starting battery isolated out.

                You know what? The GC batteries crank the engine faster than the 900 MCA starting battery does.

                Theres somthing to say about having two batteries in series with a total of 140# of lead in them.....
                Captharv 2001 2452
                "When the draft of your boat exceeds the depth of water, you are aground"

                Comment


                  #38
                  MidnightSun wrote:
                  Well if we are going for the popcorn let me throw this out.

                  I never use my starting battery although I do have a dedicated "Starting Battery" Difference is I call this my "emergency battery" as oppose to starting. My house bank consists of 4x 6v 200ah AGM combined for a 12v 400ah system. My selector switch is always on the house bank which means I also start from it. If ever the house bank were to fail or be too weak to start then I can switch to my "emergency battery" (never happened yet) IMHO this make more sense than fiddling with switches to start and then switch when at destination or under way. The potential for forgetting to switch is asking for more trouble than anything else.

                  Keeping in mind I have two motors/alternators where each is connected to each bank and therefor while underway everything is being charged regardless of battery switch position. This is easily overcome on a single engine with the addition of a good ACR which is exactly what I did/had on my previous 2855.

                  A 350/383cid like mine needs what? 400cca will let it crank with ease? There is absolutely no reason why the house bank deep cycles can't deliver this without being affected detrimentally even in the long run. I never understood why a house bank on an inverter is asked to deliver 300+ amps to power a toaster for 5+ mins continuos yet to power a starter with similar power draw for a 5-6 second startup is going to hurt your deep cycle bank. Makes no sense whatsoever does it?

                  op
                  Yep, this is what I do. I am too lazy to switch from one bank to the other. I do every once in awhile crank on the "start" battery just to exercise it, if that really is a term. I got my house bank from West Marine (the Sea??? brand) only because my daughters give my gift certificates there, and they have been great batteries - 6 years old now and still strong. They will run everything on the hook for 2 days, maybe more but that is the longest I have stayed before docking back up. I think size has more to do with longevity than brand. JMO

                  Comment


                    #39
                    captharv wrote:
                    In the article I mentioned that deep cycle marine batteries are not true deep cycle batteries. A true deep cycle battery would not have enough current capacity to start an engine without doing itself harm. So, the marine deep cycle batteries are made sort of somewhat halfway inbetween starting and deep cycle. They are what some manufacturers call dual purpose. Example: Delco voyagers, Sears Die hard dual purpose whatever its called.
                    Ahhhh, that's what I was missing. Dual Purpose batteries are really marine deep cycle batteries. Now it makes sense.

                    captharv wrote:


                    The GC batteries crank the engine faster than the 900 MCA starting battery does.

                    Theres somthing to say about having two batteries in series with a total of 140# of lead in them.....
                    I had a similar experience with my tow vehicle battery vs my boat's DC batteries. My boat engine would crank from the DC batteries, but slowly, even when fully charged. If the engine was cold, I would have to crank multiple times, After running one down while cranking, and the engine still didn't start, I hooked it up via jumper cables to my tow vehicles. I let it sit for a few minutes. Then when I went to crank, the engine spun much faster, and fired right up. So this is what steered me to wondering if I should have a standard automobile battery as a "crank" battery and a marine DC battery as my "house" battery. Then I saw the "Dual Purpose" battery and figured that was the way to go. However, when I connected it up, and cranked the engine, I still didn't the fast crank I was looking for. Now I understand why. Even though it says Dual Purpose, it is really a deep cycle battery.

                    Thanks again CaptHarv for the reply and the knowledge transfer!

                    -Jorden

                    Comment


                      #40
                      I had a similar experience with my tow vehicle battery vs my boat's DC batteries. My boat engine would crank from the DC batteries, but slowly, even when fully charged. If the engine was cold, I would have to crank multiple times, After running one down while cranking, and the engine still didn't start, I hooked it up via jumper cables to my tow vehicles. I let it sit for a few minutes. Then when I went to crank, the engine spun much faster, and fired right up. So this is what steered me to wondering if I should have a standard automobile battery as a "crank" battery and a marine DC battery as my "house" battery. Then I saw the "Dual Purpose" battery and figured that was the way to go. However, when I connected it up, and cranked the engine, I still didn't the fast crank I was looking for. Now I understand why. Even though it says Dual Purpose, it is really a deep cycle battery.
                      Sounds more like a tired old starter that needs replacement or maybe just some connection that need to be tightened IMHO. If you can't crank normally on a new dual purpose something is amiss. By boosting, you are combining the boost battery to the available source which will give you much more than just the boost battery alone.
                      Cheers, Hans
                      2007 Carver 41 CMY
                      Twin Volvo D6-370
                      Montreal, Canada
                      Midnight Sun I Photos

                      Comment


                        #41
                        johnrupp wrote:
                        Jorden, A pair of DP batteries with a 1-2-Both switch will serve your bowrider just fine. It is the kind of boat they are designed for. Plenty of CCA's to start your engine and able to handle a couple hundred moderate discharges. Most bowriders have a lite house load, radio, anchor light etc. When you get into cruisers it becomes more important to have a dedicated house bank "deep cell" and engine bank "starting" as the house loads greatly increase, DC fridge, interior lighting, TV. inverter uses etc.
                        Thanks! That is exactly what I was thinking of doing.

                        Any need to use a battery isolator for when the switch is on "Both"?

                        Comment


                          #42
                          Flash Jorden wrote:
                          Any need to use a battery isolator for when the switch is on "Both"?
                          NO... BOTH/ALL combine battery banks!

                          However, and IMOO, you are better off to allow the charge unit (O/B Charger or Engine Alternator) to sense these batteries individually by NOT being on BOTH/ALL...... Again... IMHOO.

                          Isolators are old school technology by today's standards and offer a .7 voltage drop.

                          The Blue Seas ACR or the BEP VSR is the way to go.

                          .
                          Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                          2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                          Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                          Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                          Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                          Comment


                            #43
                            MidnightSun wrote:
                            Sounds more like a tired old starter that needs replacement or maybe just some connection that need to be tightened IMHO. If you can't crank normally on a new dual purpose something is amiss. By boosting, you are combining the boost battery to the available source which will give you much more than just the boost battery alone.
                            That might be the issue, and I'll have to look into that. My thought process, based on experiences with battery issues in my car and motorcycles, is that having 1 or 2 fully charged batteries connected in parallel (boosted via jumper cables) will not make a starter spin any faster, just "stronger/harder". The only way to make an electric motor spin faster (i.e. starter motor) is to increase the voltage, by connecting batteries in series (commonly done on high compression ratio bike engines). Boosting increases the amperage, not the voltage.

                            So based on what I had been seeing, DC battery (fully charged) = slower crank speed. Auto battery = faster crank speed. There must be enough of a difference in their manufacture that allows an auto battery to deliver more energy instantly than a DC battery, as CaptHarv stated in his article.

                            In any case, I'll keep looking into it. I'm sure I'm making this more complicated then I have to. It's the engineer in me ...

                            -Jorden

                            Comment


                              #44
                              2850Bounty wrote:
                              NO... BOTH/ALL combine battery banks!

                              However, and IMOO, you are better off to allow the charge unit (O/B Charger or Engine Alternator) to sense these batteries individually by NOT being on BOTH/ALL...... Again... IMHOO.

                              .
                              Sorry, I should have been more specific. That is exactly what I was thinking. When the engine is running, and the alternator is supplying charge back to the batteries, if the HBSS is on "BOTH/ALL" should I have an Isolator to prevent the alternator from "seeing" both of the batteries. Of course the simple fix to to not have the HBSS on BOTH/ALL when the engine is running.

                              2850Bounty wrote:


                              Isolators are old school technology by today's standards and offer a .7 voltage drop.

                              The Blue Seas ACR or the BEP VSR is the way to go.
                              Thanks, I'll look into those.

                              -Jorden

                              Comment


                                #45
                                HTGR/PMGR means high torque gear reduction or permanent magnet gear reduction.

                                These are smaller motors, they spin the armature faster, then reduce this giving them more torque at the pinion gear, and consequently more engine cranking rpm.

                                1987 Bayliner 5L OMC

                                You have a 168 tooth flywheel.

                                This is the motor that replaces your old outdated Non-Reduction starter motor.



                                No OEM today is using anything but the HTGR/PMGR starter motors.

                                .
                                Rick E. Gresham, Oregon
                                2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
                                Twin 280 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
                                Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
                                Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

                                Comment

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