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    #16
    My opinion is that buying new instead of used solely in order to help the marine industry is a crazy idea. I think people should buy new or used boats depending on what works best for them in their situation. Sure some people can afford to buy new, and they buy used. If in your situation buying new works best for you go ahead and buy new, and if buying used works better for a persons situation then that person should buy used. For some people, new boat, warranties, dealer service, etc are important to them and worth the premium. Other people may have a mechanical background, or know mechanics or have some other situation where a used boat for a comparatively lower price is a better deal for them.

    Regardless of new or used the buyer should try to get the most bang for the buck, or most value for the resources, by negotiating or making sure they don't overpay etc. We don't have Bayliner Cruisers anymore because Brunswick couldn't figure out how to make people buy enough of them at the price they needed to be selling them for. Unfortunately I think there are still a lot of Bayliner / Sea Ray style sterndrive bowriders being built (even with Sea Ray being sold) and the demand for this type of boat is falling off rapidly. So I see more sterndrive bowrider type boat lines being shut down.

    -Rip

    Comment


      #17
      Originally posted by riplash View Post
      My opinion is that buying new instead of used solely in order to help the marine industry is a crazy idea. I think people should buy new or used boats depending on what works best for them in their situation. Sure some people can afford to buy new, and they buy used. If in your situation buying new works best for you go ahead and buy new, and if buying used works better for a persons situation then that person should buy used. For some people, new boat, warranties, dealer service, etc are important to them and worth the premium. Other people may have a mechanical background, or know mechanics or have some other situation where a used boat for a comparatively lower price is a better deal for them.

      Regardless of new or used the buyer should try to get the most bang for the buck, or most value for the resources, by negotiating or making sure they don't overpay etc. We don't have Bayliner Cruisers anymore because Brunswick couldn't figure out how to make people buy enough of them at the price they needed to be selling them for. Unfortunately I think there are still a lot of Bayliner / Sea Ray style sterndrive bowriders being built (even with Sea Ray being sold) and the demand for this type of boat is falling off rapidly. So I see more sterndrive bowrider type boat lines being shut down.

      -Rip
      I think you and I are agreeing vigorously. By all means, what works best for you should be Priority 1. I am just saying the "advice" you see on boating forums is to automatically buy used, and I feel we have reached a point where it is damaging the industry. And you SHOULD care about that because if nobody is buying new boats, then there won't be used boats in a few years either.

      I bought new, because I had pretty exacting requirements and there was nothing out there in the used market that would work.

      One clarification: We don't have Bayliner cruisers because we don't have buyers. Period. There isn't enough warm bodies who are buying boats. Cost is, I guess, tangential to this because cruisers are now a 6 figure proposition, but there's still a dearth of people out there.

      Matt Train
      BOC Site Team
      Chicagoland, IL

      Comment


        #18
        Matt, of course cost is the driving factor. How many people do you know who can or will pay in excess of $100,000 for a 30' boat. Actually I saw something smaller advertised the other day for more than twice that.
        Watch for many boat buyers switching to Rv's. Again there are many used bargains because a lot of owners are older and have little used rigs in good condition but they have timed out. And the related costs of an Rv is much less than a boat.
        Doug

        Started boating 1955
        Number of boats owned 32
        Bayliners
        2655
        2755
        2850
        3870 presently owned
        Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

        Comment


          #19
          Originally posted by dmcb View Post
          Matt, of course cost is the driving factor. How many people do you know who can or will pay in excess of $100,000 for a 30' boat. Actually I saw something smaller advertised the other day for more than twice that.
          Watch for many boat buyers switching to Rv's. Again there are many used bargains because a lot of owners are older and have little used rigs in good condition but they have timed out. And the related costs of an Rv is much less than a boat.
          Doug
          Cost is the driving factor, but what's missing in this conversation is buyer education. Most buyers don't know there's a 20% markup in boats. Hell, before this past year *I* didn't know. THe boat I just bought MSRP'd for $74,000. I paid *significantly* less than that. Had I not know there was that much markup, I would never have even bothered looking in the first place.

          And that's my point.
          Matt Train
          BOC Site Team
          Chicagoland, IL

          Comment


            #20
            Matt, you may think buyers don't know markup but I will tell you most do. In the auto business there are two factory invoices. The one the dealer sells you the vehicle for factory invoice and the other sometimes called holdback which Is the real dealer cost. In addition there are many factory sponsored incentives in both the boat and auto business. Some are offered to the buyer but many are for the dealer to do with what he will. Give the buyer a better or if he can pocket the difference.
            You can extract even better discounts on a used boat. Even a brokered boat. The broker doesn't get anything unless he sells and he has nothing invested. From the time he signs the contract his best interest is helping the buyer.
            Now I am going to give you a personal example of buying. I looked long for a certain model boat. A 38xx. This was just before the market crashed. Found one in the fall. Broker was asking $89,000. I offered $55,000. Broker said he would never take that. I wrote a check for the entire $55,000 plus sales tax. I told hem to tell the seller he had a check in hand for the entire amount. Seller didn't answer the phone so the broker left him a message.
            Broker was giving me a sea trial when his phone rang. He looked at me and said he took your offer.
            my thinking. it was fall. Owner was faced with another winter storage. Boat needed bright work done but the marina that sold it was brokering it and they had done all the work on it since new. That was good. By giving him the check told the seller that money was there but made it sound like a final offer and I wouldn't write another check.
            And that's exactly what happened. I upgraded a lot of things but there was nothing that had to be done to take the long trip home. And 13 years later it is still in top condition with no major problems.
            Doug
            Started boating 1955
            Number of boats owned 32
            Bayliners
            2655
            2755
            2850
            3870 presently owned
            Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

            Comment


              #21
              The "new v. used" debate is as old as the hills. IMO....the cheapest way into boating is to buy a used boat. I buy new because I can. I am not stupid nor foolish for doing so; for me, it's worth the extra $$ to get exactly what I want, without wasting time driving all over the place looking at other people's intepretation of "cream puff," and then spending my precious time cleaning up the messes left behind of the previous owners. I like clean boats. I have bought numerous used boats, and enjoyed them immensely. Now I usually buy new, and enjoy them immensely. I buy new simply because I can, and because it is worth it to me.

              Boating is an expensive and largely "luxury" or "leisure" activity. Who is anyone to judge what is a "wise" waste of money vs. a foolish waste of money?

              For those who are fortunate enough to be able to buy new, that is their choice and worth it to them. For others, it is worth their time to buy used. Fine with me. I need the secondary market when it comes time to sell my boat. For the secondary market, they need people to buy new so that there is a secondary market.

              And people who buy my used boats are usually lucky as heck, because they are getting one of the cleanest and best maintained boats around.......

              Comment


                #22
                Originally posted by 6104696 View Post
                The "new v. used" debate is as old as the hills. IMO....the cheapest way into boating is to buy a used boat. I buy new because I can. I am not stupid nor foolish for doing so; for me, it's worth the extra $$ to get exactly what I want, without wasting time driving all over the place looking at other people's intepretation of "cream puff," and then spending my precious time cleaning up the messes left behind of the previous owners. I like clean boats. I have bought numerous used boats, and enjoyed them immensely. Now I usually buy new, and enjoy them immensely. I buy new simply because I can, and because it is worth it to me.

                Boating is an expensive and largely "luxury" or "leisure" activity. Who is anyone to judge what is a "wise" waste of money vs. a foolish waste of money?

                For those who are fortunate enough to be able to buy new, that is their choice and worth it to them. For others, it is worth their time to buy used. Fine with me. I need the secondary market when it comes time to sell my boat. For the secondary market, they need people to buy new so that there is a secondary market.

                And people who buy my used boats are usually lucky as heck, because they are getting one of the cleanest and best maintained boats around.......
                Agreed, and you made my point for me. We are at a point - and Bayliner's sales numbers that I saw supports this - that there are too many people flocking to the used market. It is artificially driving prices up on used boats.

                And despite Doug's assertion, there is widespread misinformation on new boats and shopping. On a car, it's easy. I have 5-6 websites to look at, and I can play dealers off each other. You don't really get that luxury with a boat.....when they find out where you live, if you are out of region, they refer you to the selling dealer in your area. THere is only 1 website you can go to that gives you an approximate dealer cost.

                IF you are a new entry into the boating market, I can totally understand how there would be a lot of misunderstanding.
                Matt Train
                BOC Site Team
                Chicagoland, IL

                Comment


                  #23
                  Seadealercost.com but their costs are from copies of dealer price lists and do not include program or non program discounts to dealers.

                  Comment


                    #24
                    We don't have Bayliner cruisers anymore, just because Brunswick want all of you to buy a Sea Ray Sundancer.
                    $100,000 for a 30' cruiser? ... not even close!
                    a brand new Sundancer 320 will set you back $400,000
                    Joon, Kathy, Jaden & Tristan
                    Uniflite 42 AC, DD 671N
                    93 3058 sold
                    92 2855 (day boat)
                    91 Fourwinns 205 (lake boat)
                    Longbranch WA
                    Life is Good

                    Comment


                      #25
                      Originally posted by Woodiver View Post
                      Seadealercost.com but their costs are from copies of dealer price lists and do not include program or non program discounts to dealers.
                      And that is where the real savings are. Sometimes these are more than the retail markup.
                      Started boating 1955
                      Number of boats owned 32
                      Bayliners
                      2655
                      2755
                      2850
                      3870 presently owned
                      Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

                      Comment


                        #26
                        Originally posted by Ruffryder View Post
                        We don't have Bayliner cruisers anymore, just because Brunswick want all of you to buy a Sea Ray Sundancer.
                        $100,000 for a 30' cruiser? ... not even close!
                        a brand new Sundancer 320 will set you back $400,000
                        Very few on this site can afford that. Those who can don't get that way by doing it. Brunswick made a big mistake. They should have sacked Sea Ray first and kept Bayliner and built cruisers people could afford. Now they are both gone.
                        Started boating 1955
                        Number of boats owned 32
                        Bayliners
                        2655
                        2755
                        2850
                        3870 presently owned
                        Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

                        Comment


                          #27
                          I could tell you so much but, I can’t.




                          What a can say is during the period 8 to 10 years ago, dealer financing rules changed (not really but were enforced). Dealers were scared to bring in configured products like cruiser vs cheap 175’s since they would be on the hook for curtailment fees if the boat didn’t sell in time.




                          Manufacturing footprint changes within BC caused selling costs to increase along with Mercury increases due to environmental requirements.




                          Bayliner and SR have always competed in the same lower end markets, some times selling products at a loss just to compete. Not a smart move for BC other than the engine play. Sorry to break your bubble but boat companies don’t make a lot of profit, it’s all in the engine.



                          Comment


                            #28
                            I don't think any bubble was burst because I don't recall anyone saying they made a lot of money. Boats cost more than a customer can pay. Boats were built quite like motorhomes I have seen being built. A crew installs something where ever they drill the hole that day. That was why no two boats were alike and what one owner would offer for help in an area didn't match another owners boat.
                            What someone has to do is find ways to build a good product at less cost so a customer can afford them. Motorhomes also have increased in cost so much they price themselves out of many buyers ability.
                            All that said, Bayliner in 2008 did some things that would have reduced costs. They had a new plant I was privileged to visit when invited to do a boat test. We were given a tour of a new plant. Being from a mfg background I immediately saw things that were foreign to building boats (and motorhomes). I knew someone with automotive experience was involved and it turned out it was the plant manager who I had the privilege to spend some time with on a one on one basis.
                            What he started (and the entire plant had not changed so there was a great comparison with both methods) was to build components of the boat off the boat and install them as a package. Example the bathroom would be complete when it went on the boat. Templates were made so all holes were drilled in the same place on every boat. So each were in the best position. It made a better product and at much less cost. I also noticed this new plant had new workers. These people were working at a good pace and even more important taking the time to do it right. I saw a worker go back and touch up his work because he wasn't satisfied. He wanted it right.
                            More happy customers and less repairs which cut costs.
                            I have an example of how much difference this makes and its a motorhome example. I test drove a motorhome I was interested in but couldn't get the seat back far enough to be comfortable driving it. It was a deal breaker for me. I liked the brand and had a couple new ones previously. I was at the factory and sat in another and I had lots of room. Fine, I ordered one. I went to the factory and watched it being build. I sat in the seat and didn't have leg room again. I then saw why. When the seat was installed the guy drilling the holes moved it over just enough that the edge of the slideout just behind the drivers seat hit the slidout and couldn't be moved back as far as one moved over a couple inches. I contacted an engineer and explained what I saw. They moved my seat and plugged the holes. He said he would make up a templet so that didn't happen again.
                            That almost cost them a sale.
                            But it illustrates how much this can improve a product and in the case of the Bayliner save a lot of money.
                            Bayliner was really on to something that could have duplicated in all their plants. Unfortunately It didn't happen because a short time later that plant was closed because of lack of sales with the rest to follow.
                            Enough improvement to save them? Likely not. Maybe if it had happened 10 years earlier and continued to improve as it could. Maybe they could have weathered the recession better. But you still have to make a product a customer can afford. Not just raise the price.
                            I remember working at GM,, when times were tough we would tell sales to just sell it at cost. We will make improvements that will make the profit. That always happened. Nothing beats a work force that is always looking to improve what they are doing. A strong suggestion program does work. If an employee cares like I saw at the Bayliner factory, well that works too. New plant, new employees, no union telling them not to kill the job. Its all a factor.
                            Started boating 1955
                            Number of boats owned 32
                            Bayliners
                            2655
                            2755
                            2850
                            3870 presently owned
                            Favorite boat. Toss up. 46' Chris Craft, 3870 Bayliner

                            Comment


                              #29
                              Not sure which plant you toured but it sounds like Navassa which was purchased from KCS and was planned to be the home for all Meridian and cruiser production. Only a handful of models transitioned to Navassa before things hit the wall.
                              USM started the lean transition during the 2000’s and it was light years ahead of traditional building. Some plants were further along than others but it didn’t help them survive. The Pipestone facility was the leanest plant in BBG but it closed.
                              USM plants were smaller than SR plants and not set up for line flow. They were also too far away from the markets. Most boats are sold or ship off the east coast (most international RORO shipments go out of east coast ports, even to Australia ). Shipping is very expensive and distance to markets killed the Arlington, Roseburg and Pipestone plants. Trophy which was built in Cumberland MD moved to the saltwater group and moved to Sea Pro for a short time prior to the move to Triton.
                              Even though many on this board think the West coast is the market, it isn’t.

                              Comment


                              • Jeffw
                                Jeffw commented
                                Editing a comment
                                Perhaps you could fill us in a bit more on your background, obviously you were a Bayliner employee. We toured the Roseburg plant in 2008, great experience.
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