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TOPIC: filled crankcase with the garden hose

filled crankcase with the garden hose 18 Jun 2009 17:52 #26

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boatworkfl;311639 wrote: Is it possible that the water pressure in the intake manifold crossover failed and dumpd the water into the crankcase? Pat

Pat, I think for that much pressure to build, you'd have to have an extremely blocked exhaust "dump or waste water" passage..... and both sides to boot!
I can't imagine that the engine would cool if such blockage existed.

Remember, this water first goes past his sea water pump impeller..... then onto the suction side of the Raw Water system Thermostat Housing......
The engine Circ pump then draws water into the engine block on an "As Needed" basis...... and since the lowest resistance is/or should be right out and through the exhaust, this is very unlikely, IMO.



Man this thread is getting a lot of attention! ..... LOL

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 18 Jun 2009 18:25 #27

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2850Bounty;311559 wrote: You had water back up in the exhaust system and enter the non-running engine through a few open exhaust valves...... Correct?
So this water entered via a few cylinders and piston rings! Correct?
NOTE: Engine has not yet been run, correct?


Just one extra note to Rick's comments, pull the plugs before you turn it over the for the first time to eliminate the hydrolock possibility, we don't want any bent rods.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 18 Jun 2009 18:42 #28

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SJ Bikesaws;311626 wrote: Here is the system.


That's what I thought we were going to see.

That whole deal needs to go. Way too many failure modes present and one false move will cost you an engine. That should be one straight shot of hose from transom to water pump. Since you do not boat in salt water, there is no reason to have a special flush apparatus installed.

At the very least, if you insist on keeping that stuff, those hoses should be double clamped and at least one of them does not look like a marine hose.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 18 Jun 2009 19:48 #29

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2850Bounty;311638 wrote:

  • water backing up into Manifold from the drive being tilted up.....
  • too much flow for the exhaust by-pass/relief...... ?????
  • several exhaust valves were open.....
  • Piston rings will allow a certain amount of water past them......
  • possible long shot here..... but you may even have an internally cracked exhaust man that does not necessarily pose a problem under normal conditions...... Hey..... I said a Long Shot! :kidding
How long were you away at the ER while the hose was ON?
I think there's your answer.

Don't panic yet!
Pull spark plugs......
Roll the engine over with some oil in each cylinder.....
Do the oil change....
run....
then change both oil/filter this time.....
run again........
check oil again.....
look for white milky-ness.......
change oil/filter again.....
run again........
Repeat if necessary......
Call me in the morning! :D




Now, take two pain killers..... go boating!


.

Sounds good too me, I have to get the dang water out of the motor regardless. I'm going to hit the parts store after work and buy up all of their oil and filters.

As for how long in the ER? 1 hour to town, at least 3 hours in the hospital, another hour to get some grub since I was in town, another hour to drive home, and another 20 minutes to remember that I left the water on.

I still feel worse about the boat than the arm though.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 18 Jun 2009 22:47 #30

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Them's the breaks.
I would do as rick says. He does this for a living.
i had a boat which the exhaust manifold cracked. It put the crankcase full of water. I drained the water/oil, put in new manifolds, and removed the spark plugs as suggested and cranked it. Blew water out of all 4 on one side. After that, put in plugs and started it with fresh oil. A suggestion I got from a pro mechanic was to put a pint of alcohol into teh oil at the third flushing. It will absorb the water faster.
After 4 flushings, it ran smooth, and I ran that boat for 300 hours after that with no problems. The compression was still acceptable after all that when I sold it.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 18 Jun 2009 23:46 #31

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I have a friend who has a similar setup, but he keeps a short length of hose permanently attached. He's in salt water, and to flush the engine he just puts the hose in the bucket of fresh water with the tap hose filling the bucket. And he also mentioned to me that if ever he will have a leak bad enough to fill the bilge, he will just drop this already attached hose down, and turn the valves to suck the water out with the engine pump. That's the only reason to install this kind of a system on a freshwater boat.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 19 Jun 2009 00:40 #32

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2850Bounty;311644 wrote: Pat, I think for that much pressure to build, you'd have to have an extremely blocked exhaust "dump or waste water" passage..... and both sides to boot!
I can't imagine that the engine would cool if such blockage existed.

Remember, this water first goes past his sea water pump impeller..... then onto the suction side of the Raw Water system Thermostat Housing......
The engine Circ pump then draws water into the engine block on an "As Needed" basis...... and since the lowest resistance is/or should be right out and through the exhaust, this is very unlikely, IMO.



Man this thread is getting a lot of attention! ..... LOL


Point well taken. Pat

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 19 Jun 2009 00:42 #33

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fishaman;311775 wrote: I have a friend who has a similar setup, but he keeps a short length of hose permanently attached. He's in salt water, and to flush the engine he just puts the hose in the bucket of fresh water with the tap hose filling the bucket. And he also mentioned to me that if ever he will have a leak bad enough to fill the bilge, he will just drop this already attached hose down, and turn the valves to suck the water out with the engine pump. That's the only reason to install this kind of a system on a freshwater boat.


Raw water pump moves a lot of water and I too have seen this arrangement as a supplemental bilge pump. For a bowrider it is probably not needed.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 19 Jun 2009 13:57 #34

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Maybe a silly question but is it possible that the oil cooler gave under the tap pressure and filled the engine through the oil lines?
Just came to mind when I read "Water was dumping out of the dip stick tube". If it was dumping a lot (gushing), I'd suspect that it wasn't the rings.

But like I said, just a silly question.

Lou

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 19 Jun 2009 14:43 #35

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Not silly at all, Lou, if the volvo used an oil cooler. That could certainly have been a source, I suppose.


I do know one thing that I've learned today...... and that is:
If I EVER need lots and lots of immediate help on this forum........ (like this thread has received)..... I'm using this picture for sympathy..... Man that works well! :kidding






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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 17:26 #36

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2850Bounty;312030 wrote:
I do know one thing that I've learned today...... and that is:
If I EVER need lots and lots of immediate help on this forum........ (like this thread has received)..... I'm using this picture for sympathy..... Man that works well! :kidding


ME TOO!!!

BTW, I went a little crazy this weekend. Hit the parts store and bought a few cases of oil and all 4 of their small block filters, decided I was going to pull the intake and valve covers to remove the water before I turned it over since most of the water sits in the intake valley, lifters, and on top of the heads.

Just for kicks I picked up a Wiend 360 dual plane intake and a new edelbrock carb. That way, I feel like I am souping it up instead of fixing a F%^& up.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 17:41 #37

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Was the carb a marine carb? if not, take it back.

Otherwise you have gotten solid advice. :) Hope you feel better.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 17:42 #38

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Where'd you find the carb? Hopefully you got a marine carb and not an automotive carb... safety issue.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 17:50 #39

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SJ Bikesaws;313274 wrote: ME TOO!!!

BTW, I went a little crazy this weekend. Hit the parts store and bought a few cases of oil and all 4 of their small block filters, decided I was going to pull the intake and valve covers to remove the water before I turned it over since most of the water sits in the intake valley, lifters, and on top of the heads.

Just for kicks I picked up a Wiend 360 dual plane intake and a new edelbrock carb. That way, I feel like I am souping it up instead of fixing a F%^& up.


Yep, you do not want to use the automotive aluminum intake manifold on a raw water cooled engine.
Likewise a non-marine carburetor. :hammer And it isn't entirely a safety issue!

What you really should have been doing, is to start and run this engine IMMEDIATELY with new oil..... just as I suggested!

Now, if I missed this part, and you did do this, then disregard my comment!

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 19:03 #40

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2850Bounty;313288 wrote: Yep, you do not want to use the automotive aluminum intake manifold on a raw water cooled engine.
Likewise a non-marine carburetor. :hammer And it isn't entirely a safety issue!

What you really should have been doing, is to start and run this engine IMMEDIATELY with new oil..... just as I suggested!

Now, if I missed this part, and you did do this, then disregard my comment!


Its already together and ran. I pulled off the top end pieces and blew it out with an air compressor, let it sit in the sun for a bit, bolted it together and ran it. No signs of water in the first oil change, but I ran it and gave it a second change anyway. I still plan on giving it another change before it hits water.


Now, what are the issues of running an automotive intake and carb? I was already running an automotive edelbrock in the first place, I swapped it over three years ago when the Q jet picked up issues and haven't had any problems. The only difference I found was the Q jet made the boat run just a bit quicker on the top end, about 2 mph faster on top according to the speedometer.

I swapped the intake but I can always swap back. The carb is new but I didn't spend any $$$$ on the intake, my brother had it sitting in the shed and just gave it to me.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 19:17 #41

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The automotive carb is an explosion hazard. The 'j tubes?' on an auto card vent excess fuel into the atmosphere, which is not a problem in a relatively open auto engine installation. Supposedly very deadly in a sealed bilge. There are some other differences, but I believe that it the biggie. Speaking of explode, I'm guessing this thread is about to.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 22 Jun 2009 23:22 #42

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SJ Bikesaws;313323 wrote: ................ Now, what are the issues of running an automotive intake and carb? ...................

As long as you are using a Dual Plane intake, the engine will run just fine. It's the method in which the two different manifolds are built where the difference is.
An aluminum SBC Marine intake manifold (for a Raw Water cooled engine) will have a bronze liner in the water cross-over and at the rear blocked ports.
Without this, you WILL have corrosion issues even in fresh water from a dissimilar metals/water combination.
An automotive aluminum intake will not offer this!
If you had a Closed Cooling system, this is a non-issue! But yours is raw water cooled!

The Marine carburetor metering will also be slightly different from that of an automotive carburetor.
We can not operate these engines on the lean side throughout certain rpm ranges and loads.


While somewhat on the topic, a marine ignition system will offer a spark lead and "Full Out" limit suitable for the marine load..... a subtle difference from that of an automotive advance full out limit.

.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 23 Jun 2009 00:29 #43

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2850Bounty;313464 wrote: As long as you are using a Dual Plane intake, the engine will run just fine. It's the method in which the two different manifolds are built where the difference is.
An aluminum SBC Marine intake manifold (for a Raw Water cooled engine) will have a bronze liner in the water cross-over and at the rear blocked ports.
Without this, you WILL have corrosion issues even in fresh water from a dissimilar metals/water combination.
An automotive aluminum intake will not offer this!
If you had a Closed Cooling system, this is a non-issue! But yours is raw water cooled!

The Marine carburetor metering will also be slightly different from that of an automotive carburetor.
We can not operate these engines on the lean side throughout certain rpm ranges and loads.


While somewhat on the topic, a marine ignition system will offer a spark lead and "Full Out" limit suitable for the marine load..... a subtle difference from that of an automotive advance full out limit.

.


thanks for the answers. I'm not worried about the lean conditon, all of our lakes in NM are at 4000 ft above sea level or more. Usually everything runs too rich here. I will probably let the intake rot a little before I pull it and swap it, it was free after all, and I havent owned a car or truck with a carb in a decade so I really have no use for it otherwise.

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 23 Jun 2009 03:40 #44

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I have run aluminum intakes on boats for a couple decades! There is more corrosion in the cooling ports, but aluminum, when it corrodes, creates a barrier that actually slows the corrosion, it actually protects itself! (I am talking fresh water only!). If your in fresh water I wouldn't give the automotive intake a second thought. They are the same. In fact, one of my old boats had a Cast Iron intake that was a mess when I switched it to an aluminum dual plane. There was no corrosion inhibitor on the interior of that intake and it was discusting with rust flakes.

As for the Carb. The biggest issue is the way the carb reacts to stuck floats and over-pressurization of the fuel system. A marine carb dumps the over flow into the intake of the motor (J shaped tubes out of the float bowls) where a automotive carb will dump it outside the intake tract. A BIG BAD!

Other differences are in the seals and gaskets around the throttle plate shafts and the throttle plates themselves. Everthing in a marine carb or fuel pump is designed to put excess fuel INTO the motor and not allow it to leak into the bilge. In a automotive application its fine as it dumps onto the ground. In a boat, it goes into the bilge and BOOM!

Long and short of it is:

Carb, Alternator, Distributor, ignition system, electronics. All MUST be designed for marine use. All other componants are pretty much interchangeable!

Performance may suffer and longevity may also suffer with use of automotive cams, freeze plugs, etc. But they will do the job. In fact, sometimes they do the job better (IE: performance intake manifolds!)

DISCLAIMER: My opinion and experience only. All you hollier than thou's keep your flame jobs to yourself as I don't give a rats behind what you think. See signature, I have built and run some wicked motors in boats!

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filled crankcase with the garden hose 23 Jun 2009 04:04 #45

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Tee;313563 wrote: I have run aluminum intakes on boats for a couple decades! There is more corrosion in the cooling ports, but aluminum, when it corrodes, creates a barrier that actually slows the corrosion, it actually protects itself! (I am talking fresh water only!). If your in fresh water I wouldn't give the automotive intake a second thought. They are the same. .........................

As for the Carb. The biggest issue is the way the carb reacts to stuck floats and over-pressurization of the fuel system. A marine carb dumps the over flow into the intake of the motor (J shaped tubes out of the float bowls) where a automotive carb will dump it outside the intake tract. A BIG BAD!

Other differences are in the seals and gaskets around the throttle plate shafts and the throttle plates themselves. Everthing in a marine carb or fuel pump is designed to put excess fuel INTO the motor and not allow it to leak into the bilge. In a automotive application its fine as it dumps onto the ground. In a boat, it goes into the bilge and BOOM!

Long and short of it is:

Carb, Alternator, Distributor, ignition system, electronics. All MUST be designed for marine use.
All other componants are pretty much interchangeable!

Performance may suffer and longevity may also suffer with use of automotive cams, freeze plugs, etc. But they will do the job. In fact, sometimes they do the job better (IE: performance intake manifolds!)

DISCLAIMER: My opinion and experience only. All you hollier than thou's keep your flame jobs to yourself as I don't give a rats behind what you think. See signature, I have built and run some wicked motors in boats!

There you have it. Advice on marine motors from one who knows!

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
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filled crankcase with the garden hose 23 Jun 2009 14:17 #46

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But,,,,,,,, Edelbrocks all vent the fuel bowl internally. Automotive Qjets vent externally to a charcoal canister in the car/truck so I can see that causing problems though.

the square-ish holes on the right and left inside the air horn are the fuel bowl vents.
Marine

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I know the finish wont stay shiny on the polished one, the last one didn't. But I really never had problems with them.

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