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TOPIC: Ill bet you dont know the answer!

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 04:28 #1

  • a1machinista1
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Working on a 1991 capri 90 hp force


If I put a test lead to the yellow/red (starter exciter) and turn the key I have 13.2 volts

If I hook the wire up to the solenoid and turn the key again I have 0.00 and no clicking

This is a new solenoid w 4 post

large= battery
large=starter
"s" = yellow/red
"I" = nothing

Everything works normally!! radio, blower, bilge, lights etc...

The solenoid is suppose to be an isolated base but when i tested the solenoid ( not mounted, battery direct,starter direct and a jumper from battery to "S" I had to ground the base to the - battery for it to engauge) My assumption was an isolated base had no contact with the circuit?

I can jump the 2 terminals on the solenoid and the starter does work!

The boat is in neutral! Im going to by pass the neutral safety tomorrow and see if I need to replace that??

One thought I am having is that it only reads 0 when it has a load!! So Bad ground???? Im going to replace the ign switch just for the point of it..


So any suggestions? One good piece of news, I bled the trim system and the prop has been in the up position for about 49 hours and has not drop a bit. ( petty good for a pump that has been in storage for 13 yrs) I hope she'll hold for a bit...

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1991 capri 90hp L-drive
" I love it when it go vroom vroom "

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 05:25 #2

  • 2850Bounty
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I need more info in order to answer or take a stab at this.
There appears to be no "I" terminal on this solenoid and there appears to be no separate ground wire for this solenoid.
http://www.baylinerownersclub.org/forum/attachment.php?attachmentid=6592&d=1244082054

When you mention that the solenoid has an isolated base, are you suggesting that it does not make a negative connection via it's housing contact to the grounded body of the starter motor or the engine? (as most I/O starter motor solenoids do)

.

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 06:40 #3

  • hvacmach
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Never tried to explain this in a short answer before so if it sounds to easy or curt, I don't mean it that way.

When explaining electrical theory I have my students use a light bulb
with two wires coming off of it, as the modern digital voltmeter is so
sensitive that it will give you some readings that make it harder to
understand then it needs to be. In the following picture if the yellow object
was a bulb you would read voltage at points 2 and 3 when in fact you really
shouldn't. what your reading is voltage drop across the bulb. anyway. . . . .

Try to think of the wire starting at T1 as being one contentious wire going all
the way to T2. you would get a reading across T1 and T2 (the battery) but not from T1 to point 2,3,4,or 5.

Unless there is a break in the wire (an opening) NOW you have two wires
(fig 2) one from T1 to point 4 and one from T2 to point 5. So
any reading starting from T1,1,2,3,4 and T2,6,5 and you will get a reading.

When you close the switch you are trying to read one wire as the key switch
has closed the circuit.

Please excuse the very basic drawing but. . . .

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Any way sounds like you you have an open neutral (ground)




Hope this was helpful?

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a
a

1982 Santiago Cuddy 2150
[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 11:57 #4

  • lolar3288
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a1machinista1;306089 wrote: Working on a 1991 capri 90 hp force


If I put a test lead to the yellow/red (starter exciter) and turn the key I have 13.2 volts

If I hook the wire up to the solenoid and turn the key again I have 0.00 and no clicking

This is a new solenoid w 4 post

large= battery
large=starter
"s" = yellow/red
"I" = nothing

Everything works normally!! radio, blower, bilge, lights etc...

The solenoid is suppose to be an isolated base but when i tested the solenoid ( not mounted, battery direct,starter direct and a jumper from battery to "S" I had to ground the base to the - battery for it to engauge) My assumption was an isolated base had no contact with the circuit?

I can jump the 2 terminals on the solenoid and the starter does work!

The boat is in neutral! Im going to by pass the neutral safety tomorrow and see if I need to replace that??

One thought I am having is that it only reads 0 when it has a load!! So Bad ground???? Im going to replace the ign switch just for the point of it..


So any suggestions? One good piece of news, I bled the trim system and the prop has been in the up position for about 49 hours and has not drop a bit. ( petty good for a pump that has been in storage for 13 yrs) I hope she'll hold for a bit...


Two things come to mind without actually testing the setup myself.

One is there is sometimes and interlock on the trim to prevent starting the engine when the drive is up and it usually breaks the negative from the solenoid.

Second is that if there is a bad connection through the master connector or to ground it acts like a large resister so you can't get enough current to pull in the solenoid.

With the key on and the red/yellow disconnected, if you touch the solenoid terminal with the red/yellow wire.....do you get a spark?

Larry

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Larry

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 13:30 #5

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hvacmach;306123 wrote: Never tried to explain this in a short answer before so if it sounds to easy or curt, I don't mean it that way........................

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...........................
Hope this was helpful?


It is helpful, in fact, very helpful......... and the drawing is great!
So long as anyone reading this understands that the voltage reading taken at T1 T2 (figure 2), considers that the "break" between 4 and 5 would be similar to the solenoid being "open" (non energized), I think we can agree.


lolar3288;306147 wrote: Two things come to mind without actually testing the setup myself.

One is there is sometimes and interlock on the trim to prevent starting the engine when the drive is up and it usually breaks the negative from the solenoid.

Second is that if there is a bad connection through the master connector or to ground it acts like a large resister so you can't get enough current to pull in the solenoid.

With the key on and the red/yellow disconnected, if you touch the solenoid terminal with the red/yellow wire.....do you get a spark?

Larry


Good point Larry :)..... are you a closet "L" drive owner? :kidding

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 14:15 #6

  • The_Sea_Word
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The answer is that the solenoid needs a ground. Preferably a dedicated ground wire to the solenoid. But it needs a ground in dsome form.

You can also put a load like a cigarette lighter or pump on that ignition circuit, and test it. Sometimes an ignition circuit will pass voltage but not enough current to fire the solenoid.

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Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 17:55 #7

  • BigBadLou
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I agree with Larry that it sounds like a break in the wire (or bad connection) creating parasitic resistance in the circuit. If it was a bad ground, the wire would read full 12V with key on, not 0.

Mr. Machinista, try jumping battery votage from the big starter terminal to the S terminal. If the starter turns over, the relay is good.

As Sea Word suggested, put a load on the yellor/red wire, such as a lighbulb and try turning the key. The bulb might light up dimly, showing low voltage. That would definitely prove a bad contact in the circuit.

At that point, you should trace it backwards, using the lightbulb (or test light) to pinpoint the problem. It could be the ignition switch, it could the main harness connector, it could be a rat job somewhere behind the panels where the wire is hanging by a thread.

Let us know what you find.
Lou

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Ill bet you dont know the answer! 08 Jun 2009 22:40 #8

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2850Bounty;306183 wrote:


Good point Larry :)..... are you a closet "L" drive owner? :kidding


I've run boats all my life....all kinds..and a lot of outdrives. I just hate systems that switch the negative like some of the outdrive interlock circuits.

It's just plain bad engineering....like putting a shunt in the negative line!!!!

Because of my electrical/electronic background (with mechanical as a minor) I get the call when people have a problem .........so more experience trouble shooting that I would like......

Retired 7 days now....

Larry

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Larry

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 09 Jun 2009 05:08 #9

  • a1machinista1
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Wow a few more answers than I was expecting, Cool I appreciate it very much. I didnt get a chance to look at the boat today.. Had to work late so im gonna read up tonight and get er fixed tomorrow. Ill post results:arr

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1991 capri 90hp L-drive
" I love it when it go vroom vroom "

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 09 Jun 2009 05:25 #10

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Ok first larry I think asked if I could get a spark? With key @ on position, no spark.. I will try with key in crank pos tommorrow..

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1991 capri 90hp L-drive
" I love it when it go vroom vroom "

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 09 Jun 2009 05:43 #11

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And bounty, Hello again yes by isolated I mean I was under the assumption that the steel base of the new solenoid was not part of the circuit. I.E....I would need to ground the circuit via wire? I was under the belief that I would need to ground the solenoid through the "I" terminal, But I was laying in bed and i thought to myself that the "I" terminal was a voltage supply and NOT a ground?? So if that is true and and it is an isolated base, how do I complete the circuit???

And yes lou the starter will crank if I jump the s terminal...





" I love it when it go vroom vroom "

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1991 capri 90hp L-drive
" I love it when it go vroom vroom "

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 09 Jun 2009 07:30 #12

  • Steelfist
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Just a thought if you jump the solenoid that will not tell you if the solenoid is functional... could there be corrosion on the contacts in the solenoid causing it to not connect? Just thinking out loud as i have had many a ford solenoid cooked dead and they tend to do that.

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Dave
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Ill bet you dont know the answer! 09 Jun 2009 14:03 #13

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all corrosion was cleaned and its a new solenoid, headed out to work now I will try after work..

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1991 capri 90hp L-drive
" I love it when it go vroom vroom "

Ill bet you dont know the answer! 10 Jun 2009 04:44 #14

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Ok so heres the answer!!! I have learned today that boat makers intended for the main wiring harness halves to be FIRMLY pushed together for a water tight seal and funny enough to get a GOOD wire connection:hammer Something minor and didnt cost me too many hours:arr Thank you all and I learned something today. So it was a good day I would say

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1991 capri 90hp L-drive
" I love it when it go vroom vroom "
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