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TOPIC: Cobra stumbles in reverse

Cobra stumbles in reverse 06 Aug 2017 17:02 #1

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Moving away from the dock, forward works perfect. But when I shift it in reverse, it starts to stumble and shudder, even once it is fully in gear. This continues when I pull the throttle back to rev the engine. As I shift it back into neutral, the idle returns to normal.

What might be causing this, and Is this something I can easily adjust? Or should I be leaving it to my OMC mechanic to fix/solve?

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 06 Aug 2017 17:26 #2

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ESA activating sticking when shifted in reverse or over stroke switch not working cancelling it...
See if the roller on the lever is not centering itself in the "W" when you shift into reverse.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 06 Aug 2017 18:08 #3

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Ruffryder wrote: ESA activating sticking when shifted in reverse or overtake switch not working cancelling it...
See if the roller on the lever is not centering itself in the "W" when you shift into reverse.


+1

Also check to see if the microswitch is sticking.

Rectify this ASAP. My first Bayliner was doing the same thing on occasion and I procrastinated on getting it fixed. One day we were coming out of a very tight slip at a marina, I needed to power forward and back a few times to maneuver. The switch stuck momentarily and I could not power up in forward or reverse. As the boat drifted close to a seawall the switch disengaged suddenly and the stern was slammed against the wall.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 06 Aug 2017 23:45 #4

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Yikes. Okay. I'm heading to the boat in a few. I'll take a photo of the area so you can see if it is how it is supposed to be.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 07 Aug 2017 17:30 #5

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updated newer, after market ESA module deleted the over stroke switch...
check to see if that wiring is still there.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 07 Aug 2017 18:27 #6

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I own a cobra I would not try to use it until fixed 8 had to. Buy another buy ignoring the issue wiped out the forward gears for occasional
Stumbling
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 07 Aug 2017 18:35 #7

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Ruffryder wrote: updated newer, after market ESA module deleted the over stroke switch...
check to see if that wiring is still there.


Not sure what that means, but here are two photos. Can you see anything that isn't right? Here it is in neutral.



Reverse. Actually, it is fully in reverse plus about ⅓ throttle.



The ripple in the roller mount (lever?) has always been there, so that can't be it. It also shifts perfectly in and out of forward gear.

On a different note, I rarely get under the 'hood' except to check fluid levels and tighten/replace belts, leaving the mechanics to the mechanic. Is there something I can simply spray on the engine to remove the crud?

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
MMSI: 367637220
HAM: KE7TTR
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 07 Aug 2017 19:29 #8

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CptCrunchie wrote: Moving away from the dock, forward works perfect. But when I shift it in reverse, it starts to stumble and shudder, even once it is fully in gear. This continues when I pull the throttle back to rev the engine. As I shift it back into neutral, the idle returns to normal.

What might be causing this, and Is this something I can easily adjust? Or should I be leaving it to my OMC mechanic to fix/solve?


" even once it is fully in gear..."
this isnt directly related to the stumbling, but when you say "even once it is fully in gear" would lead one to believe you are gently easing it into gear.... almost all types of marine gear shifting should be done quickly and crisply....and the cobra outdrive is no different. when shifting, dont let it linger and slip or grind, as this will only cause premature wear/damage. with the throttle at idle, move the shift lever in a purposeful manner like you want it solidly in gear, NOT like you want to feel it drop gently into gear, as the slow gentle method is unhealthy for the unit.... and a crisp shift will allow the mico switches to move crisply and make a solid contact as well, whereas a slow gentle shift may allow the little contacts in the switch to fail quicker than if the connection is made quick.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 07 Aug 2017 21:40 #9

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Centerline2 wrote:

CptCrunchie wrote: Moving away from the dock, forward works perfect. But when I shift it in reverse, it starts to stumble and shudder, even once it is fully in gear. This continues when I pull the throttle back to rev the engine. As I shift it back into neutral, the idle returns to normal.

What might be causing this, and Is this something I can easily adjust? Or should I be leaving it to my OMC mechanic to fix/solve?


" even once it is fully in gear..."
this isnt directly related to the stumbling, but when you say "even once it is fully in gear" would lead one to believe you are gently easing it into gear.... almost all types of marine gear shifting should be done quickly and crisply....and the cobra outdrive is no different. when shifting, dont let it linger and slip or grind, as this will only cause premature wear/damage. with the throttle at idle, move the shift lever in a purposeful manner like you want it solidly in gear, NOT like you want to feel it drop gently into gear, as the slow gentle method is unhealthy for the unit.... and a crisp shift will allow the mico switches to move crisply and make a solid contact as well, whereas a slow gentle shift may allow the little contacts in the switch to fail quicker than if the connection is made quick.


I squeeze the lock and pull the throttle lever back rather quickly to engage the dogs. The motor does its usual 'stutter' like it does putting in forward, but in reverse, it doesn't smooth out. Instead, it continues to stutter and stumble. Twice the engine quit, even though the lever was almost ¼ throttle after the first 'click'. While I can feel the OD engage, I consider the first click to be 'in gear'.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 08 Aug 2017 01:50 #10

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bobmorgan wrote: It looks like the ESA is staying engaged. It should go back into the v notch after temporarily stumbling the engine. Look at it when you shift it into forward and you should see the lever sits in the v notch. Likely an fine adjustment issue.


Ah. Okay. So the triangular thing is sticking. Guess it may need a thorough cleaning and some grease. I can do that. Thanks.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 08 Aug 2017 04:17 #11

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I had difficulty cleaning it, but I lubed it, and it still stays up when put in reverse, so the switch stays depressed. In fact, the W won't budge when it is in gear. And when I put it in forward, it too stays such that the switch is depressed. So, my next question ...I've included in the photo.



The only way I can see this would work, is if the squeezing pressure releases when the dogs are fully engaged. Is this how it works?

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
MMSI: 367637220
HAM: KE7TTR
TDI tech diver
BoD, North Olympic Peninsula Puget Sound Anglers, Sequim, WA
Kevin
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 08 Aug 2017 11:21 #12

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Something limiting the control ... in other words the control moving fully to reverse, or is something amiss, take it apart.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 08 Aug 2017 11:54 #13

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CptCrunchie wrote: I had difficulty cleaning it, but I lubed it, and it still stays up when put in reverse, so the switch stays depressed.
A depressed switch is what stumbles the ignition in order to lower engine speed.
But let's back up for just a minute.

The ESA system is in place to assist a shift from gear back into neutral...... it is NOT there to assist a shift into gear.
Why...... because intrinsically the Dog Clutch will engage very easily.... but it also wants to remain engaged.
The engagement teeth (not the gear teeth) are ramped (i.e., cut at a slight incline) that holds engagement while under load.
By stumbling the engine, the load relaxes just long enough for gear disengagement.


In fact, the W won't budge when it is in gear. And when I put it in forward, it too stays such that the switch is depressed. So, my next question ...I've included in the photo.

The only way I can see this would work, is if the squeezing pressure releases when the dogs are fully engaged. Is this how it works?
I am not following your "squeezing pressure" analogy! Please explain!

The ESA (electronic shift assist) is intended to create relaxed Dog Clutch engagement so that a shift from gear back Into Neutral may occur.



I'm not sure what you are calling the W.

The cam arm (or cam lever) should momentarily activate the micro switch during cable jacket resistance.
The cable jacket resistance should only occur when the dog clutch teeth are under load and are resisting separation.
The load is produced by the propeller's resistance in the water (i.e., the hull is moving more slowly than what the prop wants it to be moving) .
This is why the ESA adjustment is ALWAYS made while the boat is in the water...... not in the shop!!!!!!


As the cable itself is trying to move the Dog Clutch sliding sleeve (i.e., separate the engagement teeth), the cable's outer jacket feels the resisting force.
This force is applied to the cam arm/lever, of which in turn activates the micro switch via the little roller tip arm.

When the micro switch causes the engine speed to drop momentarily, the Dog Clutch teeth let go......, the outer cable jacket resistance ceases......, the cam lever returns to the spring-loaded center position......, and all else goes back to normal.


Your task is to find out what is causing the resistance to remain even after a gear selection has been made.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 04:23 #14

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2850Bounty wrote: Your task is to find out what is causing the resistance to remain even after a gear selection has been made.


Thanks for that thorough description. Any suggestions what area I should be looking at? It appears that the lower cable is holding the W lever - the thing the roller slides against - against the pins.

I had it out again today. Forward works perfectly. Reverse is still screwy. It feels like it is going into gear, but the engine continues to 'stumble'. Since the dogs are fully engaging, not sure what damage I could do to them. Only what the engine is doing is at tissue.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
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HAM: KE7TTR
TDI tech diver
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 13:13 #15

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bobmorgan wrote: I would suggest getting an OMC certified mechanic to look at and make the adjustments/cable replacement if you do not feel comfortable doing it yourself. Running an OMC with an improperly adjusted shifting mechanism will eat up your lower end in no time.


Sadly, its salmon fishing season here until August 15 and his time is at a premium. But you are correct, this is far beyond my comfort and ability to even touch it. It just seems like it would be something simple. Guess this answers my OP.

Best I leave the mechanics to the mechanic. Took me a long time and a lot of money to learn that, ....far more money than I even thought I would save by doing it myself. :pinch:

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
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HAM: KE7TTR
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Kevin
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 13:25 #16

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bobmorgan wrote: I would suggest getting an OMC certified mechanic to look at and make the adjustments/cable replacement if you do not feel comfortable doing it yourself. Running an OMC with an improperly adjusted shifting mechanism will eat up your lower end in no time.


Great advice... Unfortunately mechanics that understand OMC Cobras are few and far between nowadays.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 13:48 #17

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If you own an OMC Cobra, and if you are tired of the issues and expenses regarding the shift cable replacements and adjustments and fiddling with the ESA, there is a great solution.
The solution is a conversion from the OMC Cobra to the Volvo Penta SX or DP-S drive.....
NOT an OMC Cobra to Merc A drive!!!!!! That would be switching from one Dog Clutch system to another!!!!!!

With the SX or DP-S conversion:
No more Dog Clutch engagement in lieu of the much better and more smooth cone clutch system.
No more ESA issues or adjustments.
No more lower shift cable replacement/adjustment in lieu of a single 33 C cable.


The late Don S had approx 13 years experience with Volvo Penta. I recall him once posting a response to an SX conversion question.
Perhaps you can find an iBoat thread regarding this.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 14:05 #18

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bobmorgan wrote:

Norton Rider wrote:

bobmorgan wrote: I would suggest getting an OMC certified mechanic to look at and make the adjustments/cable replacement if you do not feel comfortable doing it yourself. Running an OMC with an improperly adjusted shifting mechanism will eat up your lower end in no time.


Great advice... Unfortunately mechanics that understand OMC Cobras are few and far between nowadays.


True but ..... Third one down on the list :)
www.yachtworld.com/byp/categories/Repair...oatRepair_WA.html.en


The OP is in Sequim.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 17:44 #19

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Norton Rider wrote:

bobmorgan wrote:

Norton Rider wrote:

bobmorgan wrote: I would suggest getting an OMC certified mechanic to look at and make the adjustments/cable replacement if you do not feel comfortable doing it yourself. Running an OMC with an improperly adjusted shifting mechanism will eat up your lower end in no time.


Great advice... Unfortunately mechanics that understand OMC Cobras are few and far between nowadays.


True but ..... Third one down on the list :)
www.yachtworld.com/byp/categories/Repair...oatRepair_WA.html.en


The OP is in Sequim.


Yes, and my guy is on the list, Olympic Marine in Port Angeles. Chuck has been working on OMC since 1988 and knows all the issues. His prices are also very reasonable.

If/when this drive craps out, I've already looked into the VP DP-S. Indeed, that will be a welcome change, but an unneeded one at this point.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
MMSI: 367637220
HAM: KE7TTR
TDI tech diver
BoD, North Olympic Peninsula Puget Sound Anglers, Sequim, WA
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 09 Aug 2017 21:39 #20

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Yup the ESA shift interrupt switch is staying engaged.
It is supposed to return to the "V" notch center groove... supposed to be like this when shifted reverse.


Should be able to budge the cam lever (W) whether it is in gear or nutral....


You can try to take the whole assembly apart to lubricate, check for worn out nylon bushing.

Look at the over stroke switch one above it...
This switch has a rubber booted plunger sticking out. See if you have only one cam or two cams on the shift arm... later model Cobras only had one FWD cam on the shift arm.
Video when she's in the WATER, while shifting into reverse with NO THROTTLE ADANCED would be nice to investigate...
BTW properly tuned running OMC ESA shouldn't kill the engine, it is only supposed to stumble it down to 400-450 on & off.
Unlike Mercruiser's ESA system, OMC incorporated an ESA MODULE to pulse the negative (ground signal) as shown in this video...
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 10 Aug 2017 00:31 #21

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The ESA should never engage when shifting into gear only when shifting from in gear to neutral. So if it is engaging going into gear it could be something causing resistance in the cable because that is what typically causes it to engage normally (the resistance of the dog clutches to release when the boat is in the water). So to me it could be the transom shift cable getting stiff or water deposits and crud building up behind the pivot housing bell crank preventing free movement of the cable.
Id pull the drive disconnect the shift cable at both ends (pivot bell crank and engine end) and test the cable drag with a fish scale 2.5 lbs or less). If more change the cable. Then clean out the area behind the bell crank and pack that area with OMC triple guard grease. Then re adjust transom cable; reinstall the drive and next adjust the remote cable. I've done mine with the 3 special tools. Not hard if you take your time.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 10 Aug 2017 01:50 #22

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Yep you need the tools for sure. I got the original OMC ones from Crowley Marine.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 10 Aug 2017 05:47 #23

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Oddly, both forward and reverse worked perfectly today.

However, it is time to get my name on Chuck's ToDo list and lithium check it out.

Thanks for your advisement. The videos really helped me understand the moving parts. But again, time to let the mechanic do the mechanics.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
MMSI: 367637220
HAM: KE7TTR
TDI tech diver
BoD, North Olympic Peninsula Puget Sound Anglers, Sequim, WA
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 10 Aug 2017 12:05 #24

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I agree with the author of post #9....... make your Dog Clutch shift transitions with quick and concise movements.

In post #26, 88fourwinns is dead on re; the ESA being there for return-to-neutral shift transitions (similar as to what I said in post #15).

And again...... keep in mind that it's the lower shift cable "outer jacket" resistance that causes the cam lever arm operation. Watch the system as the cam lever begins to operate........ and you'll see what I mean.
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Cobra stumbles in reverse 10 Aug 2017 13:58 #25

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2850Bounty wrote: I agree with the author of post #9....... make your Dog Clutch shift transitions with quick and concise movements.

In post #26, 88fourwinns is dead on re; the ESA being there for return-to-neutral shift transitions (similar as to what I said in post #15).

And again...... keep in mind that it's the lower shift cable "outer jacket" resistance that causes the cam lever arm operation. Watch the system as the cam lever begins to operate........ and you'll see what I mean.


Indeed, I will. The more I think about it, when I shift it into forward, it is fairly smooth, but shifting it back out, I have to do it very quickly.

Yesterday when I shifted it into reverse (hearing your guys comments ringing in my head) I literally threw it into reverse ....and it worked. It came out of reverse like it goes into forward, fairly smooth. Don't know why it does this, but I can work with it.

Strange that this has only happened recently. I thought I was making ....quick and concise movements. Apparently not. B)

Thank you for all your assistance.

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"B on D C", is a 1989 2459 Trophy Offshore HT, OMC 5.7L, Cobra OD, Yamaha 15hp kicker. Lots of toys! I'm no mechanic, just a blue water sailer and woodworker who loves deep sea fishing.
MMSI: 367637220
HAM: KE7TTR
TDI tech diver
BoD, North Olympic Peninsula Puget Sound Anglers, Sequim, WA
Kevin
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