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TOPIC: My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 26 Nov 2013 15:21 #76

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Larry, I agree with Chris. Don't worry too much about that area.

However, do concern yourself with the straightness and flatness of the actual transom area surface.
Once your first core layer is glassed in place and cured......., that sucker will be very stiff and there won't be any flexing it.

One member several years ago ended up with a contoured transom, and he played hell fitting his shield to the hull and getting it sealed correctly. :S
The AQ series Volvo Penta transom shields are of a larger foot print against the transom..... making this a bit more important.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 26 Nov 2013 16:20 #77

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I feel your pain brother. Pages 5-10 of my restoration may interest you at this point in your journey (see the link below)


www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...mitstart=0&start=180

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 26 Nov 2013 18:46 #78

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I will also agree with the others. You are not building a race boat. Do the best you can with what you have . I guess my point was try not to make it worse.

I made my restoration hull straight I did what I could and didn't worry about what was there from the factory that in couldn't fix with out major reconstruction.

I was lookinging at my 32' that runs and its on the trailer right now. I see the bottom is wavier than the ocean.

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1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge twin 454's

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hull#23

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 26 Nov 2013 21:03 #79

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Hi guys. And thanks for the advice. I did manage to pick up two sheets of marine ply and e few kiln dried 2x6 and 2x8 stringer boards yesterday. The transom is all ground down and ready to start dry fitting the new ply. And yes, I already have some long straight boards to use on the transom when I clamp it in place. The main one is iron wood and it's long and thick enough to hold the transom very straight. I know it'll take more than that, but it's my main straight support that I know won't flex on me.
I'll do the best I can to keep the bottom straight, but I won't worry too much about the back with that slight hook. As mentioned, I'm probably not going to get much done for the next week. We've deciding on not going to Oregon, so thanksgiving dinner will be here. That just means time to get ready for family here.

Dewman, you did a top rate job on that project. Well done and very inspiring. I have to ask though, since you said to check with you in a couple years, how is the garage floor epoxy holding up? Yep, I went through every page.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 26 Nov 2013 22:42 #80

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LRCX 2750 wrote: Dewman, you did a top rate job on that project. Well done and very inspiring. I have to ask though, since you said to check with you in a couple years, how is the garage floor epoxy holding up? Yep, I went through every page.


Well that must have taken some time to go thru all those pages :)

The garage floor epoxy has held up great and I would do it again with no reservations. I ended up putting some adhesive non-skid strips in stratigic places as well which is a worth while addition you might consider.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 01 Dec 2013 18:53 #81

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I hope everyone had a great thanksgiving, I know I did. But as soon as everyone had gone home yesterday I got to work again. It was a nice break from it that allowed me to clear my head of the down sides of this project.
After cutting out the bulkhead between the cabin and engine compartment, I finished up scraping off the loose glass and resin that was next to where the stringers and reinforcements had been. This will be the last picture of just how dry the glass was next to those areas. It sure saved a lot of grinding time, even though it took 3 hours non stop grinding to get it all ready.

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This is a good example of just how thick the dry chop was.

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Now that the port side of the hull is ground and ready I can get to work today shaping the transom ply and the stringers. This is a shot from outside through the transom.

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I picked up the first batch of supplies yesterday. 5 gallons of ISO resin and 10 yrds of heavy chop cloth, just to get started. The pink board is a 3/4" insulation board that I'm going to use for making patterns.

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OK, time for a couple questions.
When I took out the main stringer it ended about 10" before the forward bulkhead. I'd like to take it farther forward when I get the counter out later. But for now, will it be ok to cut the end of the board with a planned scarf joint and extend it later when I get the forward floor cut out? Although now that I think about it, that forward floor section is higher than the floor in the back cabin area. So I may need to just end it with a butted end right at the bulkhead. I do know I'll have to extend the stringer that is next to the fresh water tank. It's soaked right at the bulkhead where I cut it off. So the question still stands.

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Second, when I get all the wood shaped and ready to glass in I know I need to soak the wood with resin first. I've read in other posts that the resin is thinned to soak in better. I have styrene monomer thinner that recommends only 10 percent added to the resin. Can I over thin with that? But in one of the threads I was reading they said to thin it up to 50 percent with acetone and add a lot more hardener so it will cure. What is the method that's most effective in soaking the wood deep enough to add a protection barrier?

OK, time to get to work.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 01 Dec 2013 19:30 #82

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I use the acetone method. I'm not sure it matters you need to wait to cover it with glass though until its mostly set up. Two hours or so if itsome what warm longer if its cold. Make sure its laminating resin.

I should clarify that as in up to 50% I may not always use that much you only need it thin enough for it to soak in sufficiently. Keep painting until the wood won't take any more. So paint a coat let it soak in paint again and again probably 3 or 4 times. Once it starts to set up it won't take any more. If done properly that piece of wood will be good for several lifetimes.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 04:17 #83

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On the cans instructions it says that it will stay tacky until a surface curing top coat is added. So I would assume it will be fine for laminating. Any thoughts otherwise?

It was a fairly productive day. I cut out the first layer of the transom plywood and got the main stringer roughed in to follow closely to the shape of the hull. It didn't take much since most of this 13' section of the hull is fairly flat.
I ended up removing half of the counter top supports so I could cut the bulkhead and floor out. The ply on the floor under the sink/counter was wet and rotted under the laminate flooring that was glued down from the factory, but the upside is that there's not much floor left forward of that. So the plan now is to do the stringers on the port and starboard side of the boat, and possible some of the flooring. Then I'll pull the walls and cabinetry out so I can replace the rest of the forward section of the boat. Even though the stringer was fairly dry forward of the bulkhead, I see no reason to leave ANY of the old factory wood in this boat at this point. The irony of all this rot is that it was caused by water. And that's the one thing we strive to enjoy the most! Getting out on the water!

Here's the transom just sitting in place. The final shaping and fitting around the edges will continue tomorrow. It feels good to be finally making something new to add back into the boat. I do think I'm going to have to split it down the center. My son is gone for a week so I won't have any help when it comes time to laminate it in.

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Everything forward of this bulkhead will be replaced later. At least I found SOME dry wood in here.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 04:35 #84

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Since the major flexing will be along the longest axis, which is the horizontal axis,wouldn't it make more sense to make the joint horizontal, as opposed to vertical?

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 04:52 #85

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It would. But it was suggested earlier to do opposite cuts on the two layers of the transom layers. I figured that if the first layer was split vertically, and the second sheet split horizontally that the strength would be there by having the seams crossing each other in opposite directions. If I'm mistaken please correct me. Should I do the first cut horizontally?
This was the original plan/

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 05:13 #86

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:cheer: Wow! You are good!

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 06:47 #87

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LRCX 2750 wrote: It would. But it was suggested earlier to do opposite cuts on the two layers of the transom layers. I figured that if the first layer was split vertically, and the second sheet split horizontally that the strength would be there by having the seams crossing each other in opposite directions. If I'm mistaken please correct me. Should I do the first cut horizontally?
This was the original plan/

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First, let me say "I have never done this" and secondly, "I am not a structural engineer".

However, intuitively, a horizontal seam on the first layer will, with the beam outside the transom, help pull the fiber glass straight. More than a half wide section of plywood will.

Also, if you start with a vertical split, if any distortion still remains, it will be much harder to get straight because of the increased thickness of the transom.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 10:20 #88

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Larry, if you are using Polyester Resin, the bonding resin will remain tacky, just as the can suggests.
You'll be using boding resin for the lay-up, and for the final layer of matting and roving.
The final finish work will be done with finish resin........... or you can top it all off with a tinted Gel Coat ( my recommendation).

As for the joints or cuts..... with all of the cores that I've removed and have seen removed (or that were being removed) over the years, I've never seen a factory joint made horizontally.
I'd make these vertical, not horizontal as to add to the strength of the "Box Beam" affect.

The first core layer that you've dry fit looks excellent.
You can also leave a mild bevel cut at the edges to help with the chinking of the matting!

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Question:
Since you were able to dry-fit the first core layer in one piece, could you not do the second core layer in one piece? (although IMO, not a deal breaker if not)

This is a prime example of the p!ss poor chopper gun follow-up during manufacturing.

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I believe that you're on the right track here. Keep up the good work! :)



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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 18:13 #89

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Thank you for clarifying the downside of a horizontal cut line. I really don't want to cut it at all. But it's quit a struggle getting it in place by myself. In fact, getting the full sheet of 3/4 up on the saw horses and dry fitting it into place ended up messing up my back yesterday. It's not going to be easy to get it in place with all the wet glass and resin on it when the time comes, but I'm going to do a practice run and time it after I get all the clamping boards and fasteners in place.
BUT, things are going to slow down anyway here due to the weather. Were going into a cold snap for at least a week that will have temps in the 20s at night and low 50s high 40s during the day. So if I'm not able to glass in the first core layer today I'm afraid it will have to wait till it warms up. I have the boat covered and a heater running during the night, but I can't heat the outside of the hull. So I'm not sure it would be a good idea to try laminating the plywood in place with only the inside being warm. Any thoughts?

The edge of the ply is already cut to an angle to match the edges at the bottom and sides. I still have to do some final edge fitting today, but that will depend on my back cooperating.
I do plan on using all the holes in the transom to pull it in tight AFTER the straight boards are added to the outside to clamp it in straight. Setting things up for that is the plan for today. But all this will eat up most of the day and probably not leave me enough time to get it glassed in place.

Question, is one layer of 9oz chopped cloth enough between the transom and ply? Or should I put two layers in? Can you define the term "Box Beam" for me?

And I will be final coating the entire compartment with gel coat when this is all laid up. I've always hated the fact that all bilge areas are painted flat black. It makes it very hard to see things when you need to. Mine will be white or gray.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 21:48 #90

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OK, I have a handle on getting the plywood in and out easier, literally. I made two aluminum handles and screwed them in where the out drive holes are. It makes it much easier to get in and out of place. So I'm going to move ahead with doing this in one full piece instead of cutting it. The other thing I discovered is that with the bulkhead cut out into the cabin area, I can slide it in there and work on it fairly easy. I'll be able to roll on the resin right inside the boat and not have to fight with getting it in and out of the boat. It'll make it a lot safer for my back too. :)

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Along with waiting to find out if I should add two layers of chop cloth between the transom and ply, I have another question I need an opinion on.
While grinding out all the excess glass and resin I would sweep it all up and put the clean grindings in a bag. When I was grinding out dirty junk that all got swept and vacuumed up before saving the clean grindings. In past years I have used this to thicken the resin to make the thick paste for corners and fillers. IMO it's stronger than using Cab-O-Sil or other powders since it has fibers ground up in it. What's your opinion of this idea? BTW, the bag of grindings has always been sat in front of the heater at night inside the boat so it would stay dry and not absorb moisture.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 21:56 #91

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Excellent work on your project!! I like your idea of the aluminum handles on your transom core. I also think, and I am no expert!, that the glass grindings should work great. Same kind of thing we carpenters do when mixing wood glue and saw dust to fill blemishes in our wood working projects.
You obviously have done this before, probably many times. Keep up the great work and I love the photos! Awesome job. B)

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 21:57 #92

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LRCX 2750 wrote: OK, I have a handle on getting the plywood in and out easier, literally. I made two aluminum handles and screwed them in where the out drive holes are. It makes it much easier to get in and out of place. So I'm going to move ahead with doing this in one full piece instead of cutting it. The other thing I discovered is that with the bulkhead cut out into the cabin area, I can slide it in there and work on it fairly easy. I'll be able to roll on the resin right inside the boat and not have to fight with getting it in and out of the boat. It'll make it a lot safer for my back too. :)

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Along with waiting to find out if I should add two layers of chop cloth between the transom and ply, I have another question I need an opinion on.
While grinding out all the excess glass and resin I would sweep it all up and put the clean grindings in a bag. When I was grinding out dirty junk that all got swept and vacuumed up before saving the clean grindings. In past years I have used this to thicken the resin to make the thick paste for corners and fillers. IMO it's stronger than using Cab-O-Sil or other powders since it has fibers ground up in it. What's your opinion of this idea? BTW, the bag of grindings has always been sat in front of the heater at night inside the boat so it would stay dry and not absorb moisture.

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Using grindings is a normal and accepted.practice. They are called mill fibers and as long as its clean its good

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Dec 2013 22:12 #93

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Thanks guys. I'll keep the progress pictures coming. I was worried I may be posting too much about this project.
I'm off to get the 4x4s for clamping the transom straight. Right now the hull has a 3/8" outward bow to it.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 03 Dec 2013 05:35 #94

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2850Bounty wrote:
As for the joints or cuts..... with all of the cores that I've removed and have seen removed (or that were being removed) over the years, I've never seen a factory joint made horizontally.
I'd make these vertical, not horizontal as to add to the strength of the "Box Beam" affect.


.


That's good enough for me.

I am firmly on the "vertical" side. :)

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 03 Dec 2013 10:33 #95

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Larry, the dry fitting is so important for the very reasons that you mention. As said in my earlier post, you'll be working against the clock with the resin wet matting.
DO NOT fear making these cores into sections if need be.
As for the cold weather.... certain resins are intended to be used within certain temperature parameters.
Too cold, and the resin may not go off as it's suppose to.
Mix the catalyst as to give you adequate work time, but also as per ambient working temperature.
As you know, you can apply heat to this area to aid in the curing.



.

malayphred wrote:

2850Bounty wrote:
As for the joints or cuts..... with all of the cores that I've removed and have seen removed (or that were being removed) over the years, I've never seen a factory joint made horizontally.
I'd make these vertical, not horizontal as to add to the strength of the "Box Beam" affect.


That's good enough for me.

I am firmly on the "vertical" side. :)

*************************
So we have a "convert"? :lol:


malayphred, I'm just kidding you.
I'm certainly not an engineer either, but I do think that this is the correct approach should Larry decide to split one of them!


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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Dec 2013 01:32 #96

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[/quote]

That's good enough for me.

I am firmly on the "vertical" side. :) [/quote]
*************************
So we have a "convert"? :lol:

Absolutely :)


malayphred, I'm just kidding you.

I knew that :cheer:

I'm certainly not an engineer either, but I do think that this is the correct approach should Larry decide to split one of them!

If everyone is doing it there must be a good reason. This is no point to be second guessing accepted practice.


.[/quote]

I think we both would agree that if a second layer is added, any joints in this layer should be separated from the joint(s) in the first layer. This may have been mentioned already.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Dec 2013 02:19 #97

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Well, as you'll see here I'm NOT going to split the core. But I have to tell you, it took longer to prepare all the clamping beams to clamp in the ply than it did to cut it out and dry fit it. The main reason for the extra time it took is that I had to set up the beams in a way that I could get them in place fast after the cloth/resin was put on them, and be able to bolt them together fast since I'm working by myself.
What I've done with the beams is to counter drill each 4x4 and have it screwed onto the 3/4" ply on the inside of the boat with a 4" dry wall screw so it stays in place. The outside beams have been drilled for 3/8"x8" lag bolts that I will drive in with a 1/2" air impact driver. I chose lag bolts because I wouldn't be able to hold a wrench on the inside if I used carriage bolts. When the resin/cloth is applied I'll slide the ply into place, add the three beams to the inside with the 4" screws, then jump outside and bolt each 4x4 beam starting with the center one. This method SHOULD work well since everything is indexed and pre drilled to go in place quickly. In a way I'm lucky that were at the beginning of a cold snap here. I'll do the resin work without any heat added inside or out so I have working time to get it all in place before the resin kicks off. During the night I've been running a heater inside the boat to keep things warm and dry. With a temp gun I have been monitoring that it has stayed between 66 and 70 degrees even on the inside surface of the transom plywood. For the outside heat I am going to be building a large box that will contain the heat I'll be directing into it with a new forced air propane heater I bought today. I'll show you that after I get it put together tomorrow. I have sheets of 3" solid insulation panels that I'll be using to build the hot house that will surround the outside of the transom.
I know, this is a lot of work just to put a transom in while it's cold, but after it's in I can work on the stringers while inside the nice warm interior.
So far with everything clamped down I have found by looking through the holes in the transom from previously drill mountings that the largest gap between the ply and glass transom is about 1/16". I'll do more with the dry fitting tomorrow when I pull the beams out and prepare for a few practice runs with installation so I have the procedure perfected as much as possible. But for now I think that's a fairly good fit.

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The larger holes in the beams are where the drywall screws go in to mount the beams to the inside of the plywood. More screws will be added from the outside through all the existing holes to ensure as much clamping as possible.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Dec 2013 03:03 #98

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Nicely done, Larry!

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
2850 Bounty Sedan Flybridge model
Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
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Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Dec 2013 03:32 #99

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Looks freakin great!
I'm guessing the string is to make sure the transom stays flat on the vertical plane. You could bolt on some short 2x4's going vertical if you have enough time to insure that it's flat in that direction.
If you lived close to me, I'd gladly give you a hand.
Nicely done.

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Dave
Edmonds, WA
"THE FIX"
'93 2556 5.7 Bravo II 2.0:1 18 1/4x19 P
.030 over-Vortec top end-part closed cooled
***The rebuild of my 2556***
www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Dec 2013 04:21 #100

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Thanks Rick. I just hope this all works the way I see it in my mind.

Dave, thanks for the thought. I just hope I don't regret taking this on by myself. The string is actually just holding down the back end of the 30' tarp covering the boat. But now that you mention it, a couple 4x4s bolted vertical between the horizontal beams is a good idea, IF I have time that is. Thanks.

My fingers have gone numb tonight. So that's an indicator that at 46 degrees it's time to quit. Tomorrow I'll pull all this down and check the final dry fit, then build the outside hot house while the soaking coat of thinned resin sets into the ply. Update tomorrow. Going to get warm for the night.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.
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