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TOPIC: My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 18:02 #51

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OK, you've convinced me. And thank you for the advice. I've always been the type that does overkill of any project. But trying to get it in one piece, and doing all the resin work would be more time consuming and difficult than needed by myself. So here's the plan as I understand it. The first layer will be split down the center, green line. The second layer split horizontally, yellow line. This way any flex in the transom, not that there will be any, won't have a direct effect on any of the cut lines even though they will be glassed together.
The old stuff will all come out, no worries there. Right now I'm just leaving the starboard side stringers and floor in until I get the port side done. IMO it's at least holding the shape of the bottom on that side. I have the port side supported underneath with 2x4's and bottle jacks sitting on blocks. I only have enough jacks to do one side at a time right now. The end of the left stringer will be cut off so I can work comfortably on replacing the transom.

Rick, thanks for clearing up the layers for me. I've done that same method on another boat and it's holding up great. But I saw a thread where the guy only used a paste mix between the glass and wood for his transom. IMO that may be ok if your using epoxy, but in this case I think the chop layer will add more strength as well as fill in any uneven areas.
I did cut lines in the ply with a cordless skill saw set to depth. Then with a sharpened pry bar I tapped it under an edge and popped the old pieces off. It left some wood attached that scraped off with the pry bar. I'll take pictures of it as I finish the rest of it. I just figured since you've all been there and done that before, I didn't want to bore you with that kind of detail.

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I finally got my 16 grit disc late last night and tested it. I can't wait to get in there today and start grinding. It's going to be a much faster result.

Please don't think I'm ignoring any of the suggestions you all are giving me. It's all being read and taken in. I will be doing the dry fitting on everything so it all sits nice and flat on any joint or surface.

Today I'm going to get wood and supplies after I do some grinding. But I need your opinion on something. Right down the street is a Taps Plastic store with all the resins and cloth. I've used there stuff for years with no problem. Is there any reason I should stay away from their resins? What I have and had planned to use is Laminating Polyester Resin, Bond Coat. HERE But they have a Marine Vinyl Ester resin too. HERE Would that be a better choice all around?

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 18:24 #52

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When I use poly resin I use isothalic. I buy mine from tap and the last stuff I bought from them was about $80 a gallon. Isothalic is poly resin but is a industrial grade polyester.

It has superior adhesion and water resistance properties.

When supporting the boat support the transom across the back not in front of the transom. If you have a hook ( upward depression in the bottom back of the hull) and you glass it up that way you could create negative handling characteristics.

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1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 18:33 #53

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You have one hell of a project going on there. Just some thoughts if you don't mind. I just used one piece when I did the transom on my 1980 Victoria and it wasn't that bad. Also I used polyester resin. We always have this discussion when someone reworks their boat and usually its best to use what the boat was originally constructed with, and for a 1979 Victoria it was Polyester. Also I used slightly thinned out Thixo putty to adhere between flat surfaces and used roving at the edges connecting the corners.

Also, be sure to inspect the bottom of the fuel tank. I haven't heard of many that didn't have corrosion on the bottom.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 18:58 #54

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Thanks David. I'm talking to taps right now to see what they have in stock. It looks like they have most of them in stock although some of the cans are pretty old. If I order fresh batches it won't be in till week after next. They say the isothalic will adhere to the original polyester just fine. Arrg, now I'm getting confused as to the best product to get.

The boat is supported at the back of the transom as you suggest. I need to move the corner stands out to the very edge, but as you can see there's no hook in the back right now. This picture was before I put the bottom lengthwise supports underneath.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 21:45 #55

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Well, after doing another 45 minutes of grinding out the excess glass and resin, 16 grit made it much faster, I vacuumed up the mess and took a break for a while. The one thing that really disappoints me is just how crappy they did the original glass work. Next to all the main stringers they sprayed the chop resin mix pretty thick. Unfortunately they didn't have much resin mixed into the chopper gun. They must have brushed added resin over the top after they sprayed the glass in because the glass next to the hull and stringers was bone dry. Some of the dry glass was almost a half inch thick. This act as a sponge that allowed the water to soak under all of the top layers. It's taking a lot of grinding to get all of it out and back to well saturated glass.
As you can see here I've ground most of it down and there is still dry glass between the hull and top layers.

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Here you can see the oil seeping out from under the edge where the dry glass is. It looks like I'm going to have to cut out the large cross beam for the motor mount too. I noticed oil seeping through there too.

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Is all this dry glass a common place thing with these BLers? Or did I just get lucky and end up with a boat they used for training workers how NOT to do it?
Either way I'm looking at hours more grinding before I get to a clean hull. I don't think I was being realistic when I thought I'd be starting on the transom today. :(

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 22:09 #56

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Good grief - that is appalling.

Are you sure that this is fixable?

Sadly, you might be at the " cut and run " stage.

I think you passed the " needs TLC " threshold a few iterations ago.

Maybe you could sue the PO for a refund.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 22:40 #57

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LOL, ya, I thought about that. But I've never been one to run to court to resolve an issue. The only thing that needs TLC now is me. This is really depressing, but things like this give us strength and wisdom. I'll keep grinding until the crud is gone and then I'll feel better.

Just FYI, I had another 20+ foot boat in my back yard years ago. And due to financial and family issue I gave up on it and cut it up. I really don't like throwing in the towel on anything. So I'm going to dredge on, at least for now. Just keep the encouragement coming.

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 23:08 #58

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yachtman wrote: When I use poly resin I use isothalic. I buy mine from tap and the last stuff I bought from them was about $80 a gallon. Isothalic is poly resin but is a industrial grade polyester.

It has superior adhesion and water resistance properties.

When supporting the boat support the transom across the back not in front of the transom. If you have a hook ( upward depression in the bottom back of the hull) and you glass it up that way you could create negative handling characteristics.


If you are paying $80.00 a gallon for iso you are paying way too much.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 23:14 #59

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LRCX 2750 wrote: Well, after doing another 45 minutes of grinding out the excess glass and resin, 16 grit made it much faster, I vacuumed up the mess and took a break for a while. The one thing that really disappoints me is just how crappy they did the original glass work. Next to all the main stringers they sprayed the chop resin mix pretty thick. Unfortunately they didn't have much resin mixed into the chopper gun. They must have brushed added resin over the top after they sprayed the glass in because the glass next to the hull and stringers was bone dry. Some of the dry glass was almost a half inch thick. This act as a sponge that allowed the water to soak under all of the top layers. It's taking a lot of grinding to get all of it out and back to well saturated glass.
As you can see here I've ground most of it down and there is still dry glass between the hull and top layers.

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Here you can see the oil seeping out from under the edge where the dry glass is. It looks like I'm going to have to cut out the large cross beam for the motor mount too. I noticed oil seeping through there too.

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Is all this dry glass a common place thing with these BLers? Or did I just get lucky and end up with a boat they used for training workers how NOT to do it?
Either way I'm looking at hours more grinding before I get to a clean hull. I don't think I was being realistic when I thought I'd be starting on the transom today. :(


All those little clear shinny spots were air bubbles, very poor work by the factory, but that is what they did back then when production was high.
prior to laminating wipe with acetone, wear rubber gloves.

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Pat says: DO-IT-RIGHT THE FIRST TIME!

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Twin 350 GM power
Located in Seward, AK
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 23 Nov 2013 23:28 #60

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LRCX 2750 wrote: LOL, ya, I thought about that. But I've never been one to run to court to resolve an issue. The only thing that needs TLC now is me. This is really depressing, but things like this give us strength and wisdom. I'll keep grinding until the crud is gone and then I'll feel better.

Just FYI, I had another 20+ foot boat in my back yard years ago. And due to financial and family issue I gave up on it and cut it up. I really don't like throwing in the towel on anything. So I'm going to dredge on, at least for now. Just keep the encouragement coming.


OK

We'll be with you every step of the way. :)

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 00:33 #61

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Back in 05 I had a fire in my attic that required me to rebuild my entire house. we've all heard that old saying of "Too bad they don't build things like the old days"! WELL, thank god they don't!!! This boat is no exception. Wait till you see this.

I got to thinking about the dry glass underneath. So I grabbed my pry bar and gave it a little tap with the hammer right at the edge of the dry glass. What follows in the pictures is all the extra laminating next to the stringer and the motor mount beam. Once I tapped it in I literally just pried up what you see removed. Note the nice shinny glass of the hull underneath. NO bond at all.

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Here you can see what I was talking about with all the dry chop glass under every joint.

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Now, can you guess what else has been added to the replace list! I ground the top edge of the glass on the beam and didn't even need anything more than my hand to separate the glass from the beam.

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OH, I almost forgot. I'm glad you guys edged me along to remove the rest of the transom. The picture tells it all. That would have been a big mistake to cover it up.
Maybe I should have named this thread, "How to build A NEW old Bayliner".

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OK, I'm done venting. I'm going in to take a shower and play video games with my son. Thanks for letting me lean on you a bit to get this out of my system.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 03:21 #62

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My 32' was the same way. Do you still think what ever the factory did / used was good enough?

Just think of all that grinding you just saved your self :)

You can do better. Some people say just cut the top off and replace the wood andput a cap back on but so many are like what you have.

Best to remove the entire thing down to good glass make it stick and come out right.

Here it how far I took mine down. I had already replaced some of the stringers in this picture.

Since I can't post any pictures go here to this thread if you are interested all the pictures are in this thread. It reminds me I need to post some more stuff to that.










Remember how I said isolate your stringer. Here is what I did. I sealed the transom I sealed the stringer both with penetrating epoxy then I placed the stringer and filled the gap with structural epoxy. The two parts don't touch and then if one gets wet or rotten it can't migrate.

Edit: so aparently the stupid BOC won't upload a picture for me. I'll try later.

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1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hull#23

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
Twin chevy 350's
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 03:50 #63

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yachtman wrote: My 32' was the same way. Do you still think what ever the factory did / used was good enough?

Just think of all that grinding you just saved your self :)

You can do better. Some people say just cut the top off and replace the wood andput a cap back on but so many are like what you have.

Best to remove the entire thing down to good glass make it stick and come out right.

Here it how far I took mine down. I had already replaced some of the stringers in this picture.

Cool - I'd like to see the pic's.







Remember how I said isolate your stringer. Here is what I did. I sealed the transom I sealed the stringer both with penetrating epoxy then I placed the stringer and filled the gap with structural epoxy. The two parts don't touch and then if one gets wet or rotten it can't migrate.

Edit: so aparently the stupid BOC won't upload a picture for me. I'll try later.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 03:53 #64

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1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
Twin chevy 350's

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 06:34 #65

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OK David, you got my attention, and respect. It was interesting to read your comments about the emotions. I guess it's just part of what goes along with this kind of project. The worst part is getting over the anger from being lied to by the PO. So thanks for sharing that link.
And no, what the factory did and used isn't good enough. And I know that for each hour of being disgusted during the tear down, I'll have better times after it's all cleaned out and ready to add new. I do love building things. I also read where you got your stringer boards. It turns out there is a truss building company about a mile from me. I hadn't even thought of them. Ha, now that I think about it, their almost across the street from tap plastics. Thanks again.

After seeing your 32' gutted and empty I have to ask. Am I being overly cautious by only doing one side at a time to retain shape and integrity? Or am I ok to gut it and just support the bottom during the rebuild? My thought is to at least get the stringers on the one side before I strip the starboard.

And one comment, your project sure looks like it had a better job at the factory of glassing in the stringer. That boat must have sat under water for a long time, then sat all closed up with the suns heat cooking the water into the wood. They probably didn't even drain it for a long time.

Has that project moved along any farther since the last post on page 2?

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 13:23 #66

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Larry, the problem that most boats of this age had, was due to the chopper gun technique that was used.
The chopper gun technique is OK intrinsically..... it was the follow-up work that lacked integrity.
Workers Joe and Bobby were given only so much time to produce a finished product...... and not enough time to lay the glass down properly. :evil:

I've done 5 transom core and stringer replacements over the years........... 1 Thunderbird Formula boat, 1 Reneill boat, 1 FiberForm SDN F/B boat, and several Bayliner boats, including the 2850 SDN F/B that I now own.
Each one revealed the poor craftsmanship of those chopper gun days.
Again.... it wasn't so much the chopper gun technique as it was the poor follow-up.
Lots of voids that just simply did not prevent water intrusion.

You will no doubt do a much better job than what Bayliner did originally.
If fact, you could almost be farly intoxicated, and do a better job! :silly:

*******************
Side note:
Larry, when/if you replace stringer cores, leave as much of the "shell" as possible....... unless they are a total loss.
IOW, cut off the tops of the shells, dig out the bad material, but leave the side shell structure in tact.
Your new glass material can be wrapped right over the top of these.


.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 14:59 #67

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Larry although from the pictures it doesn't look like it I did my stringers one at a time

I did the port outside first then cut the next one. The problem I was having was the two center stringers was oil saturation so to get a good clean bonding area I ended up removing both center stringers.

Most of that was delaminated and oil soaked. I left the starboard stringer mostly intact until I did the others.

It doesn't really mater in my mind as long its supported properly. Pushing up on the hull where the stringer is going to be placed is not a good idea.

I've done more on the boat but I haven't posted it Ive been too busy working and playing with my functioning 32'.

I have to say though last week I just wanted to junk my rebuilder and move on for various reasons. I'm sticking with it though. :)

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1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 16:19 #68

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[quote="2850Bounty" post=520133
If fact, you could almost be farly intoxicated, and do a better job! :silly: HaHa :P

*******************
Side note:
Larry, when/if you replace stringer cores, leave as much of the "shell" as possible....... unless they are a total loss.
IOW, cut off the tops of the shells, dig out the bad material, but leave the side shell structure in tact.
Your new glass material can be wrapped right over the top of these. I think that ship has sailed. In one post he was able to pop the glass off with a prybar. This will make it a bit difficult to get the new stringers into their original alignment.


.[/quote]

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 19:03 #69

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Thanks guys for the examples and suggestions. I woke up today with a better attitude and outlook. And knowing that this was the normal production method in years past that caused early decay of many boats helps. I'm going to continue this rebuild no matter what now. I don't think there's much more I could find that would surprise me at this point.
Yes, with all the unsaturated glass next to the stringers, there's not much choice but to grind it all down to the hull and replace everything. So leaving the outer shells at this point isn't a possibility. I've already logged all the measurements so I get them back in place correctly. But for the main stringers I think I'll go with 2x6 instead of 2x4 that needs to be built up on the sides with plywood. I just think that was a money saving idea they had that didn't add much strength. Not to mention more places for water to seep in.
I'm going to leave the engine mount beam in place till the stringers are in. Then I'll figure out, with your help, a better design to mount the front of the motors. Besides, the beam wasn't attached to the stringers anyway except for the glass cloth that laid over the top.

It's going to be pretty slow here for the next week or more. I leave Wednesday with my mom to spend thanksgiving in Florence Oregon at my brothers. I'll be doing the rest of the grinding and prep work before I leave, but that's probably about it.

Dave, is the wood available at a truss company kiln dried? Or am I going to have to dry them out myself? How important is that anyway? If they need to be dried, could I glass them down in place and keep the inside of the boat heated as I install the rest of them. Will a couple weeks in a heated area be enough to dry them before I do the reinforcing glass work? I need to get a moisture meter too.

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Nov 2013 19:33 #70

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The truss company I deal with sells the kiln dried stuff. I think that is standard for trusses. Mine also stores theirs inside. Their wood is generally nearly knot free tight grain straight boards Doug for #1 grade. You won't find that at home depot.

My stringers are 2x8 28 feet long. I had to scarf joint the center ones.

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1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 25 Nov 2013 00:22 #71

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Thanks, I'll check them out tomorrow and see what i can find out.

I took a break from grinding today and did some cleanup. I noticed one of my bottle jacks wasn't holding pressure to well so I made some adjustable support rods. I made some like this a couple years ago to help hold up my 10'x20' storage shed so I could pour a concrete floor.
Their pretty simple and quick to make. I used 1/2" gas pipe, 5/8" threaded rod, a washer and nut, them drilled a 7/8" hole in some scrape square aluminum tubing for the footing.

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Here's a row of them supporting the bottom of the hull.

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Now my question is this. How am I supposed to know how high I should raise the hull at level? It looks a LOT STRAIGHTER than the starboard side does now. But as mentioned previously I don't want any hooks near the back of the boat. But you can see here I would have to raise it quit a ways to get rid of this low spot near the back. The starboard side has the same look and it hasn't had any of the stringer removed yet. What should I do here? I looks like no matter how far I raise it I'm going to have a downward edge at the back.

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 25 Nov 2013 06:30 #72

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Just a question but what makes you think that the hull is sagging?

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1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge twin 454's

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hull#23

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
Twin chevy 350's

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 25 Nov 2013 07:02 #73

  • LRCX 2750
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If you look down the line of the 2x4 I have it fairly even. Right at the back, circled in green, you can see where the edge of the Chine sitting on the board is lower than the back edge of the transom. And it appears to me that it hooks up and then down from the chine. I've seen this on most of my boats, I'm just wondering if it's normal or is there a problem. Could it be that that end of the chine is designed that way by tapering up at the end. I may just be looking too hard for perfection.

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Before I added the 2x4 and supports that chine had high and low spots. Very uneven. The starboard side is still that way and still has the stringers installed. I'll get a picture of that tomorrow for you.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 25 Nov 2013 08:51 #74

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It's normal. When they make a mold, they add stiffeners to the transom to keep it flat but don't add stiffeners across the bottom and the glass shrinks a bit. That curve is then transfered to the hulls taken from the mold. It's no big deal on a cruiser or low speed hull but does cause problems in high speed hulls. You can take the hook out but it isn't worth the expense. Don't worry about it.

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Chris T.
1985 21' Trophy Hardtop
AQ125b/AQ275
EZ-Loader Tandem Roller Trailer
1988 Four Winns 215 Sundowner
OMC Cobra 5.7
2001 Trail-Rite Tandem Bunk Trailer
MMSI 338109211 :D

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 25 Nov 2013 17:33 #75

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Thanks Chris, that makes sense. I didn't even think about this not being a boat that's going to be skimming across the water at high speeds. With this not being a worry I'll move ahead.
Anyone know how much this boat weighs with the dual AQ140A motors?

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.
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