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TOPIC: My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Dec 2013 17:17 #226

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builderdude wrote:

yachtman wrote:

builderdude wrote: Man I was so excited, I saw 11 new posts to this thread. I was thinking Larrys done a bunch more amazing work to his boat and put up some new pics. Turns out it was you old farts talkin about how you don't need to sleep anymore.
:woohoo:


I'm a young fart :)

Haha, sorry just poking some fun at you guys. Cant work on my boat, its to cold! Guess that makes me a younger old fart :) and I'm 45
Larry, I need a fix!!


I need a fix too Dave. But it's going to be a while before I can get back into it. Don't worry though, things will get back in full speed after Christmas since I'm all ready to start adding in the stringers and structure.

When I was searching for heaters I found THIS at harbor freight tools. Considering how small it is, this might be a good choice for some of you that need to heat up your working area. The forced air heater I bought worked great for me, but is a bit too big to put inside the boat. But it WILL work great to point through the cabin door when It's time to cure the glassed in stringers. BTW, these propane heaters do a good job and it doesn't have the smell that the kerosene/diesel heaters do.

I might as well join in here, I'm 57. But my body feels much older. :silly:

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Dec 2013 19:36 #227

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Well...it's 84° here...just an FYI

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 22 Dec 2013 01:45 #228

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I would never take on a project like this because I don't have the time or the knowledge to do it but you are doing and awesome job from what I can see. I will continue to follow it step by step as you progress. Thanks for posting it.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 24 Dec 2013 04:38 #229

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First of all I would like to wish you ALL a VERY Merry Christmas with family and friends.

As you all know by now I haven't been able to focus on the project due to family Christmas dedications. BUT, I was able to do a few minutes of progress while I was waiting for things to line up one day. Where the bulkheads are located I filled the grooves of the chines with thickened resin so that when it came time to glass in the bulkheads, the matting and cloth went on smooth and evenly with the chines pre filled so they were sealed well.
My thought here is to fill EVERY chine groove the same way so that when I glass over the inside bottom of the hull with matting and roving, I don't have all those sharp or rounded edges to flow the glass over. Is there a down side to filling in the chines other than the cost of materials? And would this be stronger than adding the 2x2 wood stringers into each chine? Or should I add them on top as well?

Filled in at the bulkhead intersections.

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I'm HOPING to get back into the project by the end of the week. So I'll see you then.
MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL!

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 02 Jan 2014 04:36 #230

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Well hello again. Hope everyone had good holidays. It's sure good to be back here updating the progress again. It was good spending time with family, but the boats family too! :P
As with all things, it took a little longer to get back to the boat than I anticipated. The day after Christmas I started in on my sons engine change. I decided to take the head off his motor to see why it failed. Turns out Saturn didn't use the best of head gasket materials, so I took the used motor apart too. I lapped in all the valves and changed every gasket and seal before I put it back together and installed it. Of coarse this all took longer than expected. But 4 days from the start it's running and gone. I spent the next two days doing lawn care as well as cleaning up the back yard and the area around the boat. Things had been ignored for too long.

So late yesterday afternoon I finally climbed back in the boat. I did the final fit of the two bulkheads and cleared some more dry glass away from where the forward bulkhead goes. I figured it would be easier to do it now since it would be easier to get the grinder in there without the bulkhead in the way.
Today was a lot more productive. I got all four stringers roughed in and ready to final fit tomorrow. I plan to use one of the horizontal lasers I have to mark the height of the main stringers where the side flooring plywood sits on top of them in the bilge. I originally wanted to raise the height of those since they were only 3 1/2" high from the factory. I'm not sure on that one yet though. I'd like the added strength, but I'm not sure if I would be sacrificing space. But a couple more inches wouldn't be that big of a loss really.

About 15 minutes of block planning on each stringer had them pretty close. Tomorrow I'll do the dry fitting and grinding so they all sit as flush to the hull as possible. You can see the angle of the stringer on the left since it's upside down still.

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The stringers are all just sitting there on their own right now. Nothing is holding them up. So I would say I have the angle pretty close.

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But as you can see by the slight inward angle of the two main stringers, I have a little more to do.

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OK that's it for now. I'm hoping to get everything ready to start glassing in by the end of tomorrow. But that depends on how anal I get.
It's sure good to be back at it again. :woohoo:

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 03 Jan 2014 02:54 #231

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Today was one of those days where I worked most of the day, but it doesn't really look like it. I did the final fitting of the two main stringers and spent a lot of time figuring how high I could get away with in the bilge area. Due to the width of the fuel tank and the sides of it being at an outward angle, I was only able to raise them an additional 3/4". 4 1/4" total. It's better than what they had in it before. The fit of the stringers to the hull is so tight I'm considering bonding them to the hull using two layers of chopped matting instead of thickened resin. It would add strength, but I'm not sure it's needed really. OPINIONS?

It got too late to brush on thinned resin to pre soak the wood and hull today. That's on the agenda for tomorrow morning. It's going to be in the low 40s tonight and I don't feel like running a heater all night to try curing the resin. I should be able to pre soak and install the stringer tomorrow with it being in the mid to upper 60s. With the boat being fully covered, the temps inside get pretty warm with the sun shinning down in it. With a heater in there too it will cure nicely.
No real need for pics since nothing looks any different.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 03 Jan 2014 03:14 #232

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Good to have you posting on you project again Larry. I'm no expert, but I think your idea of filling in the Chinese with thickened resin is a good one. Should make it a bit easier to glass in your bulkhead, and I would think add some strength as well. I thought about doing the same on mine before the fuel tank goes in. Nice looking stringer material too, looks like furniture grade vertical grain DF. Can't wait to see your glass work go on over the new parts.
Keep up the good work!

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Dave
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Jan 2014 02:47 #233

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Well folks, I am officially UNDER CONSTRUCTION now. The stringers are in and curing. WooHoo!

Dave, yes I guess it is furniture grade since I got it at a specialty hardwood supply house. It's kiln dried and straight grain DF, most of it anyway. One of the 13' boards had a knot in it that I had to deal with since there wasn't anything else to choose from. Trust me I tried. I drove the knot out and ground all the bark and dried sap out so it had solid wood showing. Then I wrapped the knot with chopped matting after soaking everything with epoxy and forced it back in the hole. Then I forced all the glass in around it really tight with screwdrivers and taped the ends up so the excess epoxy wouldn't run out. After curing overnight I ground everything level with the belt sander. I think this will be more than strong enough. There will be another section of wood added over the top that will ensure it doesn't flex. You'll see that later in the build.

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Nice tight and leveled off.

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OK, so on to today's progress. Starting off early I roughed up the length of the stringers with the 16 grit grinder so the glass bites into it well later, then soaked the stringers with three coats of thinned resin as well as a coat on the hull.

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With the thickened resin mixed up my son Cody and I set the starboard stringer in place over a thick bead of paste. To bond it AND cove the edges. It took a 40oz mix just for one stringer.

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Between the end of the stringer and the first core of the transom I have two layers of chopped matting as well as the paste. Now moisture will transfer there I'll bet!

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A little trick I used with the coving was to cut a squeegee that was rounded and back cut so I could lay it down and run along the edge smoothly. Then just as it was starting to set up a bit, I sprayed acetone on the surface of the paste and ran the squeegee over it again. That laid it down really smooth so the chopped mate lays over it smoothly. I hope!

This was before I soothed out the filled edges with the acetone. But as you can see their rounded well so the matting lays over it smoothly.

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Since it took longer to get this far than expected today, I have two heaters running inside the boat as well as the propane heater running under the hull with blankets surrounding it so the heat is retained. It's already set up pretty well so I won't need to leave the propane heater running more than a couple hours more just for insurance.

There you have it. Finally getting some new wood in it. Only 9.999 steps to go from here! :dry:

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Jan 2014 13:51 #234

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Larry, I just recently joined the site and have been catching up on this thread over my Christmas break from work.

You really have talent and do a great job with nice closeup pictures showing all the details.

Like the rest I'll be following you thru the rest of the 9.999 steps.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 04 Jan 2014 19:52 #235

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Looking good Larry!
What is your magic mix for your "thickened resin" used for setting the stringers? Resin, hardener, and some munched up glass?
I wonder if there would be any downside to filling up all the exposed Chinese as well, like you did under the bulkhead areas.
Any thoughts?
Anyone?

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Dave
Edmonds, WA
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.030 over-Vortec top end-part closed cooled
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www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...ansom-repair-my-2556

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 05 Jan 2014 05:00 #236

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Yes Dave it's mixed with the clean grindings that I swept up when I was grinding all the dry and excess glass in the hull after I pulled out all the rotted wood. I mix the resin first and then add the fibers until it's thick enough to hold in position, but not so thick that the resin doesn't float to the surface. It needs to bond to the parts. If it's too dry it may not bond well enough.

My guess is that nobody has replied to the chin filling because they haven't experienced it. I'm not sure which way I'm going to go, but I will tell you that just installing the stringers and the cove edges took me 80 oz's of resin and at least 8 20oz cups of fibers. I may not have enough fiber grinding to fill every chin. I'll figure that out after all the stringers are in.
Before I used these grindings I sifted them through a sheet of 1/4" wire screen to remove anything that may have slipped into the dust pan. It paid off too.

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Today was so so. I got some work done, but was interrupted for a few hours. It threw off my focus enough that I couldn't get back into it tonight. I should make large strides tomorrow.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 05 Jan 2014 22:52 #237

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Could I advise you to use a router where possible to round out the square sides of your stringers and bulkheads before you lay glass, if you hadn't planned to already, it really helps, so does a cheap stapler with ss staples.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 05 Jan 2014 23:23 #238

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So far today has been a good day. After doing the final fitting of the center stringers I bonded the forward bulkhead in place. As I sat there trying to figure out how to piece the puzzle together, I decided to install the bulkhead first. Then I'll cut out the slots to lower the stringers in after it's cured up and hardened. This way the floor level remains perfectly level between the two outer main stringers instead of trying to add the stringers first and then install the bulkhead. I know it sounds confusing, but you'll understand as I go along later. BLer used 2x4s as stringers with plywood next to it that went up to the flooring. I'll be installing 2x all the way up on each stringer to the flooring.

Bulkhead installed and curing with heater so I can get more done today. Fingers crossed!

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I cut a few inches from the bottom up where the stringers go through the bulkhead. This way I don't have to worry about cutting into the hull with the sawsall when the time comes.

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Using my laser level I have pre marked the level that the flooring supports will go in at. It was a lot easier than trying to hold a long straight edge by myself and mark it at the same time.

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Well, now I have to stay out of the boat for several hours while the bulkhead cures. That's not going to be easy, but it's a must I suppose. I can't believe I'm actually watching the 49er vs GB game to kill some time. Too bad NASCAR isn't running. ;)

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 05 Jan 2014 23:34 #239

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GearGuts wrote: Could I advise you to use a router where possible to round out the square sides of your stringers and bulkheads before you lay glass, if you hadn't planned to already, it really helps, so does a cheap stapler with ss staples.


I really haven't gotten to the point yet where anything needs to be rounded over. I do plan on using one when the time comes. Today I was trying to figure out how I was going to get the bilge/cabin bulkhead into place with all the intersections it's going to require. My thought was just as your suggesting. Use a 45 degree router bit to edge both sides of the entire bulkhead, pre soak it with resin, then squeeze the thickened/paste resin in from both sides. This way I can make sure that it's in the proper position and it's fully bonded to the hull.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 06 Jan 2014 02:28 #240

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OK, I need some of the expert and experienced advice here. Up next is bonding the bilge/cabin bulkhead. I have it cut to fit tightly under the upper wall right now so it held things in place well.

My question is if I should glass/bond the top of the bulkhead to the upper wall for added rigidity or let it float like it was from the factory? BLer had a piece of shag carpet between this section. I'm sure it was just a vapor seal and a fast way of assembling the top to the bottom of the boat. But I want to be sure I'm not making a mistake if I bond them together. I can't think of a down side, just need some input just in case.

Here's the area I'm referring to.

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 06 Jan 2014 02:57 #241

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I would bond it, in my mind tying everything together is only going to make a more solid construction. The smaller boats I've restrung have all had way better ride quality and so much less interior squeaking and chaffing by going to extra lengths to secure all the layers of the boat together. I really dont think you want boats too flex, and the excellent work your doing is going to make a solid boat. Great post !

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 06 Jan 2014 07:56 #242

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My thought is the same with not wanting a boat flexing and squeaking. So I went ahead and beveled all the edges including the top of the bulkhead so I could bond it all the way around. Tonight I pre soaked the bulkhead and laid a 9oz layer of chopped matting on one side of the bulkhead. Tomorrow morning I'll do the other side. It's been a long day, so I'm going to cut this short,
Here's the beveled edge that I did all the way around the bulkhead.

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I pre soaked the plywood with a couple coats of thinned resin and laid a layer of 9oz chopped mat on.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 02:43 #243

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Well, I again have a cabin and a bilge compartment. The bulkhead is in place.
With the edge routed to a 45 angle it was easy to set it in place and make sure it was set properly before I bonded it with the resin paste. It was really easy doing the inside of the cabin, but it was kind of a struggle getting tucked under the back deck to do the bilge side. But, it's in.

I decided not to glass the other side of the bulkhead before I put it in. I'll do that after everything is tabbed in and the stringers a finished. It'll be pretty easy doing that side since it's inside the cabin area.

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This time when I mixed the paste up I added some cab-o-sil powder to the mix. It helped it squeegee and lay down a bit smoother with it added.

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Tomorrow I'll get to put the center stringers in and possibly add the rest of the outer stringers so their at the proper height.

Oh, I called DuraWeld today to see about getting a plastic water tank made up now that the holidays have passed. $650 and a 4 to 6 week wait for delivery. I'm going to have to call a few more options and see if I can do better than that. I can probably get a flat bottom tank faster, but I'm not really sure I want to cut down on the amount of water by deleting the V bottom design. Anyone have an inside source for a better option?

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 05:38 #244

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Larry, You're doing a grand job. I've been following this thread with interest.
Can I ask,, how do you intend to remove water which may accrue forward of the new bulkhead? Will you cut a drain into the new panel? Or maybe a forward bilge pump?

Charlie

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 15:20 #245

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Charlie Ward wrote: Larry, You're doing a grand job. I've been following this thread with interest.
Can I ask,, how do you intend to remove water which may accrue forward of the new bulkhead? Will you cut a drain into the new panel? Or maybe a forward bilge pump?

Charlie


I've given your comment over the years a lot of thought.

My first question is how did water get in there forward ? The next question would be where is it coming from so I can fix it. ( I know how it gets there if there is bilge access but how would you know if you had a leak if it didn't stay dry)

I personally wouldn't want water forward of the engine room bulkhead. Mine are sealed as how I did it and I can say that if there is significant water in the forward section of my boat I'm in a heck of a lot of trouble. Not because of the water but because its got damage and I'm probably my going down any way.

I do have 3 bilge pumps forward planned.

The other thing and I'm pretty anal about.is the icky stinky engine room bilge water that goes forward and smells up the cabin.

There should be no reason one couldn't use the large bilge hold area in the floor of the cabin area with exception that the factory made it possible for the dirty bilge water to go forward and make it dirty wet and smelly.

My thinking is if I get water in there I need to find the leak and fix it. If you have bilge water running around how are you going to know many times that you even have a water leak?

If its a leak other than a hole in the bottom it would never be significant to sink the boat unless ignored. So identify fix and dry.

There is never any aceptable reason for having water in the forward part of an enclosed cruiser. If you do there is a problem.

The other part of the equation is if your forward bilge is always wet eventually its going to rot. There are many areas up front that water can enter and can't escape so don't let it get there in the first place and don't let it create a problem

If any one can explain to me otherwise I would be willing to listen. A small and large auto bilge pump should be more than sufficient forward to be safe.

Another thing would be if I was to get hull damage to the point of a leak I would want and hope that the boat is compartmentalised as to keep the water entering to a minimal. I would prefer to keep from flooding the engine compartment.

In my boat I built a crash compartment in the front of the boat then its completely sealed off by the front v-berth bed and bulk head. Again no drain hole. A chauffer dam of a sort, for it to leave that area if I hit something the water will have to be 3 feet deep and a significant accumulation would have occured but still would not have entered the main cabin bilge area.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 15:39 #246

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Charlie Ward wrote: Larry, You're doing a grand job. I've been following this thread with interest.
Can I ask,, how do you intend to remove water which may accrue forward of the new bulkhead? Will you cut a drain into the new panel? Or maybe a forward bilge pump?

Charlie

Interesting subject, On my Regal they didn't install a forward bilge pump but did install a shower sump and pump. Then they didn't do a good job of sealing the joint under the rub rail. Both caused water to end up in the forward cavity (refuse to call it a bilge)
No interconnect to the real bilge so at least the water was clean.
Big job to repair the rub rail on an almost new boat.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 16:27 #247

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I was just sitting down to reply to Charlie when Dave's post came in. I couldn't agree more Dave. If there's a leak, fix it before it causes rot, or even electrical problems and corrosion. While I was dismantling this boat I found several areas where there was evidence of leaks such as the through hull fittings where exit and entry hoses were connected. The worst one is the windshield seals. All of these were leaking into the forward areas where the water couldn't be drained out.
The idea of a drain connecting each compartment ran through my mind a couple times. But the overpowering picture of a leak filling an aft compartment and moving all the way forward into another adjoining compartment always shut down the idea of a drain hole.

I do have a shower drain area that drained into a compartment just in front of the forward floor bulkhead. But just like check737's boat, BLer did a terrible job of sealing it even though there was a bilge pump in there. It was manually switched on though and wouldn't have done any good if a leak had filled the area and they didn't know it. My really big concern in the shower drain compartment was the addition of a large PLASTIC through hull valve that supplies water to the toilet. How safe is that plastic collar on the underside of the hull if you were to hit something like the end of a large tree branch of something. It could get cracked and or broken off. There's no way a shower bilge pump could keep up with that amount of water entering through an 1 1/4" hole. My though would have been to use a metal valve and fitting of some kind. I'll take a picture later to show you just how bad the drain area was built and designed.
I'm digressing here.

As far as a through drains, I don't think so. I'll do my best to make sure every leak is fixed before this ever hits the water again. Remember though, after the cabin area is restructured, I get to remove and discover just how bad all the forward areas are rotted. I've done some testing with the moisture meter and found a couple areas that pegged the meter.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 17:18 #248

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In my 32 the factory designed it so that the water from the bildge aft flows the length of the keel on the boat. Now forward in the cabin part of the floor there are maybe what might be called lumber holes. (No one has been able to tell me what these holes are called or what they are for. )

They are not lumber drain holes but holes drilled in the stringer about half way up. ( I made a post about it once but no one knew what they were for. I speculate only).

Anyway if enough water gets in the bilge which it has it can move forward and enters through these holes that have no drain and its under the floor which the factory did not seal on the underside. So now because water is in the forward area under the floor and can't get out it rots the floor. Thus the reason my rebuilderr 32' is a rebuilder.

The entire floor was rotten in the cabin. Plain and simple there is no reason that aft bilge water should be able to enter the forward cabin.

Install bilge pumps forward to remove water if it needs to be in an emergency.

If you have a leak forward and aft bilge water is flowing forward it may go undetected for years all the while causing damage unknowingly.

And once again you lose all the floor storage because its wet and dirty all the time.

I can understand in a ski boat but a cruiser no.


A sheet rock saw pushed into the stringer by hand its about 10" long it went right in. That is how rotten the stringer was because water could get forward and couldn't escape. If any one can tell me what this hole is called or what its purpose is I would love to know there are 4 of them along the stringer. That is 28' long



Note the water line. The other side of that hole is the floor with no access to drain or clean and is exposed to raw wood.

What was Bayliner thinking anyway. A loss of a21" x 12ft storage space and creation of damaging producing rot. Hhhhmmmm

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1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge twin 454's

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hull#23

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 18:20 #249

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There was one of those holes in each of the main stringers near the transom in my boat. But they dismally attempted to seal the holes shut with a wad of fiberglass. My thought is that it was to let the expansion foam push out air while it expanded. But since there were holes drilled in the plywood too, that really doesn't make any sense being on the side.

In my opinion, nothing would/should rot if water gets inside a boat. It SHOULD have been sealed with glass and resin properly in the first place. After all, it IS a boat that's in contact with water. :dry:

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 07 Jan 2014 19:03 #250

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LRCX 2750 wrote: There was one of those holes in each of the main stringers near the transom in my boat. But they dismally attempted to seal the holes shut with a wad of fiberglass. My thought is that it was to let the expansion foam push out air while it expanded. But since there were holes drilled in the plywood too, that really doesn't make any sense being on the side.

In my opinion, nothing would/should rot if water gets inside a boat. It SHOULD have been sealed with glass and resin properly in the first place. After all, it IS a boat that's in contact with water. :dry:


I also have a hole in each stringer on my 2556 just aft of the rear fuel tank bulkhead. Looks just like yachtmans photo. They were also covered over with a single piece of glass. I drilled through to see what the he.. somebody might have done that for.
My thoughts were the same as Larry's, foam expansion. But I have no foam in there on the starboard side, clean and dry! But can anybody guess what I might have found on the port side? Concrete! :sick: And it appears to have been pumped in there via that hole! I'm guessing, after I probed some, about 25-30 lbs.
I though the PO was responsible, but after reading yachtmans post and Larry's response, I'm thinking BL's option to add foam or weight.
Ill go get some pics to pop in.
Oh and Larry, you are a true craftsman! :)

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Dave
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