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TOPIC: My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 01:46 #1

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Hi folks. My name is Larry, and I had wanted to introduce myself under better circumstances a while back. A few months ago my sons and I took a 5 day trip from Sacramento to San Fransisco in our 16' Glasspar we restored several years ago. That got me inspired to get back into a bigger boat that would be much more comfortable for future trips. So after looking at several larger boats I bought a 27' Bayliner Victoria for 4K. It was docked in the delta for most of it's life, but was promised to be a solid boat that needed some TLC. After spending a weekend on it doing tune ups on the motors, rebuilding the carbs and all around general maintenance, we took it out for a spin. 5 minutes into the run the port engine revved up due to what appeared to be an out drive failure. Since it had two motors I limped it back to dock where the journey was REALLY about to begin. I won't bore you with all the details, but suffice it to say I did all the checks possible while it sat in the water. A few weeks later I paid to have it hauled out to park it in my back yard so I could tear into it and repair the out drive. Boy was I in for a surprise.
A quick note to this story is that I bought this so I could get away from the business of restoring and building motorcycles. I retired 3 years ago and hadn't allowed myself to stop working long enough to enjoy my retirement and spend some quality time with my kids.

After a thorough pressure washing I discovered that both drives had been rotted away along with the transom shields. It turns out the reason for the free spinning motor was the props center hub was rotted away and couldn't hold the power.

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So, I had to build an A frame to get both motors out. I'm lucky I had some heavy steel pipe here that worked nicely.

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The starboard shield/bell housing came out ok. Someone had been in it before because there was anti-seize on the bolts. But I had to drill the head of the bolts off to get the port side apart. needless to say this hasn't been fun.
Oh, and I figured out why the boat didn't steer very well. I was back and forth at slow speeds.

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OK, you get the picture of what I bought. Junk right! That's just the beginning. Motors and shields out, the discovery continued. Pulling the batteries out I found that the extra piece of plywood they were sitting on wasn't anything more than a patch covering the rot under it. The rotted out water heater didn't help matters either.

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So out came the gas tank. Now there's a bright side, I got at least 90 gallons of good gas to use in all my vehicles this winter. Hmmm, it only cost me 4K. :P

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I'll just cut to where I stopped today before I started this post, just for a break from the depressing site. The dry rot is of coarse in the transom. I pulled one layer of it off by hand after cutting the very thing fiber glass that was around the edge. You gatta love production line work eh...

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To put it mildly, the cancer spread from there along with the stringer, fuel tank pad, bulkhead into the interior, etc... I'm not sure how much farther it's going to extend. But today I realized the interior floor has to be cut out to get the fresh water tank out of the way.

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Bottom line here is that I have a lot of work/money ahead of me. I've asked myself the same question I'm sure your asking. WHY continue? Well, I remember how content and relaxed my boys and are were when we spent a 3 day weekend sitting at the dock fishing and having a good time. And, I've done this kind of work before, just not on a boat this big. Right now it looks pretty depressing. But as soon I get to the end of the rot and actually have things cleaned up and ready to start putting new wood in, things will look and feel better. And when I'm done with what promises to be a long project, I'll have a new boat that I'll be able to depend on.
I hope the experts here can answer some of my questions along the way. There's going to be a lot of them I'm sure. And I WELCOME any suggestions during this too. Just know that this build will be more than just the wood work and out drives. The entire boat will be redone from stem to stern. Stay tuned and find out just how far I have to dig to get it back on the water. I'm just not sure yet where I'm going to mount the flat screen TV and blue ray player. :)

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.
Last Edit: by LRCX 2750.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 02:06 #2

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Larry, Larry, Larry, they saw you coming!
Too bad its such a rotten deal but welcome to the forum.
My first thought was that since you have to rebuild the transom and the stringers,
there is no limit to your choices for repower, any brand, single or twins, even bracket mounted outboards!
Its more of a project then I would want for a retired guy.
Heck I'm replacing the floor in my salon and rebuilding a few cabinets.
More work than I want but since this is my home and I also want to be comfortable.
Best of luck and try to have fun while building.

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1996 4788 PILOTHOUSE
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LINK TO RENO's THREAD:
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 02:22 #3

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Larry, the good news is there are a lot ot used AQ series drives and parts on the market. Look through eBay and occasionally on Craig's List. I've seen several complete units in the Sacramento area for $400. Transom shields are easy to find as well. The lift assembly on the other hand, will be a bit of a challenge.

You definitely have your work cut out. However, there is a lot of good advice here and a lot of people with technical expertise.

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Ed & Lindsey
Sacramento, CA
1977 Bayliner Victoria "Astral Blue"
Repowered with Perkins 4.108 Diesel
Volvo-Penta 280 Drive
MMSI #: 338127697


My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 02:53 #4

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Well at least when you are done you will know exactly what you have. There is nothing wrong with doing a project like yours.

The only thing you need to keep in mind is the only way you will get your moneys worth is to keep the boat and use it.

Now is the time to fix it make it like you want it and enjoy it. There are plenty of people here that have or are doing projects similar or bigger than yours. There is more knowlege he then you can imagine so if you have questions or tech help as away.


Someone here has done it before.

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1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge twin 454's

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hull#23

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
Twin chevy 350's

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 03:05 #5

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Sorry about you getting a lemon, but a least you have the knowledge and skills to dive in.

Something to think about like mentioned would be maybe converting to outboard power?
If you are retired and in no hurry to get anywhere fast a single 50hp outboard would probably push you around at 8knots. Cheap to buy, easy on gas, cheap to maintain, easy to replace. Cool and different.
With gas prices going nowhere but up, I think more people are going to be "downsizing" there engines. This seems to be the trend in Europe.

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 03:06 #6

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The 4 cylinder transom shields are in the dime/dozen category!
Likewise with flywheel covers.
2.15:1 drives are also easy to find.

Since these are large footprint shields, use a straight edge support when your first new core layer goes in!

Do a BOC search on the topic.


.

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 04:23 #7

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Told ya this is the right place.

If these guys can't help you no one can.

To the other members reading this, Larry asked me where to post this topic, of course I said tech.

When completed and at Larry's request this topic could be moved in its entirety to completed project forum.

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Be good, be happy, for tomorrow is promised to no man !

1994 2452, 5.0l, Alpha gen. 2 drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

'86 / 19' Citation cuddy, Merc. 3.0L / 140 hp 86' , stringer drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 05:25 #8

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Yes Timberwolf, I guess they did see me coming. As for the re powering, I'm not sure about it yet. I'd love to have a single motor that takes up less space, maybe even diesel, but I plan on taking this out into open water eventually. And I already had the pleasure of having one motor down and still made it back to dock. And, unless I'm wrong, I can cruise on only one motor and use less fuel in times when I'm not in a hurry. I will be rebuilding both engines or at least freshening them up before they go back in. A lot of that depends on how the cylinder leak down test goes. But I'd love to see and hear what Astral Blue has to say about his boat set up with a diesel motor.

I've had several parts bookmarked on Ebay that I almost bought. But I figured I better finish doing my discovery of just how much needs to be done structurally first. Tonight I decided to pull the rest of the furniture and cabinetry out so I could cut the main floor out. To add insult to injury on this project, the black water tank was FULL. You've seen how high the boat is, that was fun getting the tank out and down the ladder by myself. I'm lucky though that I added a clean out in my main plumbing system years ago to do clean outs from my travel trailer.

Alen, now it's my turn. I told you this was going to be an in depth rebuild didn't I. And this is just the beginning.

To all of you, thanks for the encouragement. It always helps when faced with this much work.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 05:46 #9

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LRCX 2750 wrote: As for the re powering, I'm not sure about it yet. I'd love to have a single motor that takes up less space, maybe even diesel, but I plan on taking this out into open water eventually. I'd love to see and hear what Astral Blue has to say about his boat set up with a diesel motor.

My Father-in-law has had Volvo diesel stern drives in three different boats over the last thirty plus years, probably the very first one ever installed in North America, that's how long he's had the little diesels. He had a 65 hp 4 cyl. in a 27' house boat. He upgraded to a 115 hp version of the same motor but with a turbo and a duo-prop in that same boat. Went from a top speed of 8 knots to 25 knots. His next boat was 36 feet and it has twins but the same basic set up, 4 cyl. with turbo, 125 hp and the duo-prop. That boat does an amazing 36 knots AND at a 20 knot cruise can return about 5 mpg! I am not sure the models because even the newest ones were purchased more than a couple of decades past. But they look like the AD31. You can't go wrong with these little diesels, Dad put so many hours on them, he wore out the drives, many thousands of hours later, the boat still running strong. Be aware of the AD40/41s, they are 6 cyl. up to I think 200HP, but enough torque to eat drive internals.

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1996 4788 PILOTHOUSE
CUMMINS POWERED
"BEAR ESSENTIALS"
Maple Bay, Vancouver Island
LINK TO RENO's THREAD:
www.baylinerownersclub.org/~bayline1/ind...ics-and-a-video-link
Last Edit: by Timberwolf.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 05:51 #10

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OK, here's the first technical question. I've done LOTS of glass work over the years rebuilding everything from boats to corvettes. I even produce some reproduction and custom parts for motorcycles. My question is this. In replacing the transom, stringers etc., is it absolutely necessary to use epoxy resin to do the laminating? I did my glasspar with polyester resin at least 10 years ago with no ill effects. I know this is a much bigger boat, so the added strength is important. But the needed time to lay up an 8' wide transom could get expensive if the epoxy kicks off to quick. With polyester resin I can slow the cure down by adding less hardener. BTW, the slower polyester cures, the stronger it is as well as a bit more flexible. I plan on adding a full layer of reenforced glass over everything when it's restructured. I know it all has to be ground down between the types of resin, I just can't remember if the final coating of glass and polyester will stick to the epoxy.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not being cheap, I just don't want to to throw money at it that's not needed. What have your experiences been with doing this either way.

Next question. What are your experiences and opinions of regular marine ply vs treated plywood? Everything in this structure is going to be 3/4" ply. Also is there any suggestions on the 2x4 stringers? Treated, kiln dried... etc. I need to start buying materials soon.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 06:17 #11

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Timberwolf wrote: His next boat was 36 feet and it has twins but the same basic set up, 4 cyl. with turbo, 125 hp and the duo-prop. That boat does an amazing 36 knots AND at a 20 knot cruise can return about 5 mpg!


Are you stating a 36 foot boat with twin Diesels is capable of cruising at 20 knots while delivering 5 mpg? That would translate to the boat having a fuel burn of 4.4 gallons per hour at that speed. Please revisit these numbers.

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Ed & Lindsey
Sacramento, CA
1977 Bayliner Victoria "Astral Blue"
Repowered with Perkins 4.108 Diesel
Volvo-Penta 280 Drive
MMSI #: 338127697


Last Edit: by Astral Blue.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 06:25 #12

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LRCX 2750 wrote: OK, here's the first technical question. I've done LOTS of glass work over the years rebuilding everything from boats to corvettes. I even produce some reproduction and custom parts for motorcycles. My question is this. In replacing the transom, stringers etc., is it absolutely necessary to use epoxy resin to do the laminating? I did my glasspar with polyester resin at least 10 years ago with no ill effects. I know this is a much bigger boat, so the added strength is important. But the needed time to lay up an 8' wide transom could get expensive if the epoxy kicks off to quick. With polyester resin I can slow the cure down by adding less hardener. BTW, the slower polyester cures, the stronger it is as well as a bit more flexible. I plan on adding a full layer of reenforced glass over everything when it's restructured. I know it all has to be ground down between the types of resin, I just can't remember if the final coating of glass and polyester will stick to the epoxy.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not being cheap, I just don't want to to throw money at it that's not needed. What have your experiences been with doing this either way.

Next question. What are your experiences and opinions of regular marine ply vs treated plywood? Everything in this structure is going to be 3/4" ply. Also is there any suggestions on the 2x4 stringers? Treated, kiln dried... etc. I need to start buying materials soon.


Poly resin should be fine for all coats after the first two. It was used for my transom rebuild and the glasser who did it has been using it for 20+ years with not a single problem reported. I would advise against using less than the required amount hardener. There are hardners that are forumlated to cure slowly and made for that purpose.

By treated, are you referring to pressure treated? If so, the answer is no on all accounts. Resin will not adhere to pressure treated wood. My new transom has a marine plywood core. My new stringers are made from kiln dried white oak.

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Ed & Lindsey
Sacramento, CA
1977 Bayliner Victoria "Astral Blue"
Repowered with Perkins 4.108 Diesel
Volvo-Penta 280 Drive
MMSI #: 338127697


Last Edit: by Astral Blue.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 06:39 #13

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During my research on the net I saw where some had mentioned using some kind of treated ply. It was intended for marine use. I was just wondering if any body had used it. I cant remember exactly what it was. Marine ply is just fine with me. Besides, it'll be sealed a lot better than the factory did back in 79.
I do like the sounds of the white oak. With these stringers only being 3 1/2" high it would add much more strength than doug fir or pine.
Thanks Ed.
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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 12:34 #14

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Polyester is fine although if it were me I would stay away from the general purpose resins. Isothalic polyester or vynil ester are better choices but then you are getting into the epoxy price range.

I started my rebuild with isothalic resin but then switched to epoxy. Its harder to work with but I get a better result. Epoxy is also stronger sticks better and is less impervious to water.

In the end its a personal choice beyond I would really stay away from using general purpose cheap polyester like the stuff you would by at a auto parts store or Westmarine general purpose.

As for the wood I would stay away from the pressure treated stuff. Its usually inferior . Marine plywood or I use MDO sign board plywood. Its smooth and easy to work and get a better finish. It has good glue and has few voids. You just need to sand the surface first (it has a 2 sided paper outside) and then seal it with 50/50 resin /acetone heavily catylized. Its half the price of marine ply made for wet environments and easier to make look good.

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1989 Avanti 3450 Sunbridge twin 454's

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hull#23

1979 Bayliner Conquest 3150 hardtop hull#24
Twin chevy 350's
Last Edit: by yachtman.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 14:19 #15

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If say no........., epoxy resin is not necessary! The work that you'll be doing will far exceed the quality of what BL did back then!

The first core layer is the critical one.  Dry fit, dry fit and dry fit..... and dry fit one last time!
The better the fit, the easier the install when working against the clock.


Use every available hole for pulling the core piece tightly against the hull structure.
The straight backer at the exterior will ensure the flatness or straightness of the transom when cured.

Run the new core material right on through the transom shield cut-outs...... you will make these cuts later on.


IMO, you'll do best with Fir plywood ...... and make sure that the core layers are also Fir. 
It need not be Marine plywood.  BL used a CDX type! 
The strength will be in the "box-beam" effect that you create.

The stringers can be micro-lam material if you choose. 

With the twin OHC 4's, this will not be a speed demon! Have you considered a single V-8 with a DP drive?


.

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 14:32 #16

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2850Bounty wrote:
With the twin OHC 4's, this will not be a speed demon! Have you considered a single V-8 with a DP drive?


.


His transom has cut outs for twins. Also the stringer configuration is for twins. He would need to make this choice early on (as in now) and do the refit around it. Believe it or not, the standard configuration Bayliner used for this boat was a single 4. That was specified in the brochure. Everything beyond it was an option. If he doesn't want speed, a 350 with a duo prop isn't going to be of much use. Just my two cents...
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Ed & Lindsey
Sacramento, CA
1977 Bayliner Victoria "Astral Blue"
Repowered with Perkins 4.108 Diesel
Volvo-Penta 280 Drive
MMSI #: 338127697


My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 14:40 #17

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Ed, he'll be running the new core material right on through the original cut-outs. A change from twins to a single could occur anytime after this.

Agree........ the stringers would require re-working and the addition of engine mount towers.


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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 16:31 #18

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Larry, I was just now reviewing your photos. You do indeed have your work cut out for you!

Many of us have been there/done that! Hang in there, and we will help you get through this.

Stick with the Vovlo Penta system........ and you won't go wrong!
I'll be able to help you with drive components, etc.


.

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Rick E. Portland, Oregon
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Twin 270 HP 5.7's w/ Closed Cooling
Volvo Penta DuoProp Drives
Kohler 4 CZ Gen Set

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 17:58 #19

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2850Bounty wrote: Larry, I was just now reviewing your photos. You do indeed have your work cut out for you!

Many of us have been there/done that! Hang in there, and we will help you get through this.

Stick with the Vovlo Penta system........ and you won't go wrong!
I'll be able to help you with drive components, etc.


.


+1! I never really understood how bulletproof and reliable the Volvo Penta AQ series drives are until I purchased a boat equipped with one. Prior to that, the only thing I knew was Mercruiser. Now I know the grass on the Volvo Penta side of the fence is waaaaaaay greener!

No offense to you Mercruiser guys.

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Ed & Lindsey
Sacramento, CA
1977 Bayliner Victoria "Astral Blue"
Repowered with Perkins 4.108 Diesel
Volvo-Penta 280 Drive
MMSI #: 338127697


My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 18:45 #20

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Ed- Didn't you install the VP steam engine and duo paddle wheel? ;)

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 19:01 #21

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Thank you for all the support and suggestions. It's nice to know there are so many choices. But for integrity I think I'll stick with the marine ply on the transom at least.
I'm going to spend the day cutting out the rest of the rotten wood and getting the water tank out. I'm going to try to rebuild one side at a time if I can. But the transom will have to be replaced first so I can attach the stringers to the first layer. I'll update later this evening on how that goes.
Yes I'll covering the shield holes across the transom. But the trick is going to be getting it in one full piece since it's 8' wide. I hope I don't have to section it. I'm also thinking of doing a full sheet for the second layer. Or is that overkill?

It's interesting you mention a 350 Ed. I have a brand new motor sitting here that I built a few years back for a truck project. Fully ported and balanced. Would this be a better choice with a twin prop penta? I would like to see this boat at least be able to plane out if I want it to. Will the twin AQ140A motors do that? I still like the idea of two motors just in case.

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1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 19:06 #22

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Brad 3055 wrote: Ed- Didn't you install the VP steam engine and duo paddle wheel? ;)


HaHa

ROTFL :)

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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 19:08 #23

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Alen, thanks for the offer of helping me find out drive parts etc. We'll get into that after I get the structure tightened up.

If you want to take a look at more pictures of what I'm dealing with here's a link to my PB page. HERE

And HERE is a video of the walk around.

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Sacramento, CA.
1979 27' Bayliner Victoria W/fly bridge. 2X/Volvo AQ140A, with 2X/44 PHN3 solex side draft carbs. 280 outdrives.

My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 19:36 #24

  • dktool
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Brad 3055 wrote: Ed- Didn't you install the VP steam engine and duo paddle wheel? ;)


Yes he did, and judging by this picture, he is a happy man (or mouse)


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" WET EVER "
1989 2459 TROPHY OFFSHORE 5.8L COBRA / SX
mmsi 338108404
mmsi 338124956
"I started with nothing and still have most of it left"

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It's only a rock, get over it.
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My 27' Victoria UNPLANNED project. 20 Nov 2013 20:03 #25

  • Chief Alen
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I read each and every post to the tech. forum.

Because i am not posting does not mean i am not reading each one.

Nothing to add just yet.

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Be good, be happy, for tomorrow is promised to no man !

1994 2452, 5.0l, Alpha gen. 2 drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !

'86 / 19' Citation cuddy, Merc. 3.0L / 140 hp 86' , stringer drive. Sold ! Sold ! Sold !
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