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TOPIC: Boat fire

47 Fire 09 May 2017 17:21 #26

  • Ruffryder
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About BOAT

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47 Fire 09 May 2017 20:00 #27

  • Simonsen
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WOW - that's horrible!

FYI the tender on the top of 45/47/49/52/58 etc...are NOT for emergency deployment! I guess you could get it off "fairly" quickly but not near as quick as a swim step mounted system. Heck I can barely get my butt between the front of my tender and my canvas. Although in emergency I'm sure I could "suck in" if I had too :)

Thanks for posting about the Fireboy Systems Ruffryder..I'm going to look into those - and the emergency shut down systems.

Derek

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47 Fire 09 May 2017 20:24 #28

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My thanks to Ruffryder as well. My next major purchase is an automatic fire suppression system. After checking prices, it looks like about one boat buck should do it.

Greg

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47 Fire 09 May 2017 20:40 #29

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The system can be incorporated with their engine shutdown system...
Required for Diesel engines
www.fireboy-xintex.com/automatic-marine-...ne-shutdown-systems/

Gas engines should be paired up with a fume detector also!

www.fireboy-xintex.com/gasoline-petrol-fume-detectors/

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Boat fire 09 May 2017 21:03 #30

  • Michellekw
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Oh how scary and awful. :( I am really sorry to hear you are going through this. I hope everyone who was on board is okay. I know friends of ours who had this happen and they had almost no time to leave their boat before the entire thing was ablaze. It shook them up for quite sometime afterwards and it was a while before they bought another boat, but eventually they did and they are back to enjoying being out on the water again. I wish you all the best in the future. Take care, Michelle

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47 Fire 09 May 2017 21:25 #31

  • Technomadia
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We were marina neighbors with this boat just a month ago when they were in Florida. Our two 4788's were like twins sitting back-to-back at the dock - it is absolutely heartbreaking to see theirs lost.

We are now contemplating how to up our onboard fire safety. Or 4788 already has an engine room halon system, but there are no smoke or CO detectors on board, and I don't believe there is an engine cut-off installed.

Where have other 4788 owners installed CO/Smoke detectors, and how many?

So scary - and it all can happen so fast!

- Chris

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 09:51 #32

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Add my thoughts for your safety to the others expressed here. How terrifying, what lead you to believe it was a turbo-I did'nt know turbo's could blow up or catch fire.

Hope your insurance co is cooperating and you'll soon have the positive or looking for a new boat.

Machog

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 12:46 #33

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It's hard to express my shock and concern for your loss. We're going through the learning curve with our 4788 as you have been and have been tuned into all you've done since your purchase. It is a wake up call for all. Please keep us informed, we're a small family of fellow pilothouse owners.

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Steve & Cary Sober
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Boat fire 10 May 2017 14:17 #34

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It was such a pleasure to meet you and swap boat tours last month - and it is totally heartbreaking that your beautiful boat has been lost.

We are hoping to learn as much as possible about what happened, and how to improve our own on-board safety.

I hope the investigators are able to learn the root cause.

Best wishes,

- Chris

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 18:02 #35

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Two trains of thoughts came to me... First, I don't know how a blown turbo could have caused a fire like that. I'm guessing something electrical. It will be interesting to find out what the forensic examination determines.

Second, we carry our dinghy on top of our 4788. If there were an electrical (or other cause) fire, would we have the time and power to drop the dinghy into the water and get on board? If the davit motor wouldn't work, could we push the dinghy off the back?

We could hit DSC on the radio, our system is set up and functional (worth checking...) , then wait on the bow until the heat was too much, jump in the water and swim away. I have a handheld VHF and a floating electric strobe, so that would help. We'd have maybe a half-hour before the hypothermia would win out. Maybe an hour of total life. Would USCG or a good Samaritan have time to get to us? This is one reason why we like to buddy-boat when possible.

Regardless of the cause of the fire, please post the findings so we can all learn from you!

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Rob Meldrum
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47 Fire 10 May 2017 18:16 #36

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Simonsen wrote: WOW - that's horrible!

FYI the tender on the top of 45/47/49/52/58 etc...are NOT for emergency deployment!

Thanks for posting about the Fireboy Systems Ruffryder..I'm going to look into those - and the emergency shut down systems.

Derek


Life raft is a MUST carry on then,
Hopefully it doesn't take this long to deploy

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47 Fire 10 May 2017 18:42 #37

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Wow...so sorry for your loss. Sounds like everyone aboard got off and is OK...that's the good news. Boats can be replaced...people cannot.

Dave

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 18:52 #38

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robster_in_edmonds wrote: Two trains of thoughts came to me... First, I don't know how a blown turbo could have caused a fire like that. I'm guessing something electrical. It will be interesting to find out what the forensic examination determines.

Second, we carry our dinghy on top of our 4788. If there were an electrical (or other cause) fire, would we have the time and power to drop the dinghy into the water and get on board? If the davit motor wouldn't work, could we push the dinghy off the back?

We could hit DSC on the radio, our system is set up and functional (worth checking...) , then wait on the bow until the heat was too much, jump in the water and swim away. I have a handheld VHF and a floating electric strobe, so that would help. We'd have maybe a half-hour before the hypothermia would win out. Maybe an hour of total life. Would USCG or a good Samaritan have time to get to us? This is one reason why we like to buddy-boat when possible.

Regardless of the cause of the fire, please post the findings so we can all learn from you!



Rob,

Excellent points! I've often wondered if we could get the tender off the back in emergency too. It's SUPER heavy though so even if one could move it who knows how it'd land in the water. If the boat sank flat you could untie and get in..in BEST case. In this case the flames engulfed the boat SO fast I think that'd be the worst pace to be (right over engines basically). Bow would be your best chance I think. Ruffryder makes an excellent point (albeit poor execution by the companies product!) about having a life raft aboard but then it should be thought of as to where to put it! In this case I'm not even sure if you would have been able to pass through the salon to get to the cockpit to deploy...man...this is REALLY scary stuff!

All the PS Inland waters are pretty cold too so you wouldn't have that long to survive as you stated. One of the only benefits you'd have IF you ended up in the water is that the boat fire/smoke would send off a huge signal to other boaters.

This might sound like a stupid question but how do you test the DSC on your radio? I have my radio on all the time and also have a waterproof handheld but I hear people doing "radio checks" all the time followed by the USCG telling them not to do that.

Raul - you did safety checks on vessels if I remember from talking with you...maybe you know?

I was talking with one of my techs here at my shop and he said "likely a turbo seal blew and the engine "ran away" " So, having a fire suppression system and engine cut off sounds like a pretty damn good idea. I was looking at the Fireboy systems yesterday and it's really not that expensive and one of the good benefits I see with them is they don't expel anything that leaves residue!

This is SUCH a sad tragic event but as you said hopefully we can all learn something to possibly prevent it in the future from happening to someone else!

I'm sure this will be a very long thread and likely we wont hear much from the OP for insurance reasons but it's good we talk among ourselves.

Derek

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 19:28 #39

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It's been discussed in the past...
This would be a good opportunity to reconsider the location though ;)
www.baylinerownersclub.org/index.php/for...raft-location#775232

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 19:52 #40

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So sorry for your loss, the boat for us is a big part of our lives. There would be significant devastation for a loss like this. Glad everyone is okay.

A runaway diesel (running off engine oil) is a crazy thing.
Is it expected behavior for a runaway diesel to create an engine fire?
If so, it sure does make a great case for a halon (or similar) fire suppression system to stop the runaway engine before other ignition sources catch fire.
I would expect the engine would spin up to valve float till a part fails or it seizes from excessive internal heat.
I suppose it isn't a stretch for diesel fuel lines get damaged and cause the diesel to ignite from some hot surfaces; at that point I suppose not too much is going to put a fire like that out.

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 21:34 #41

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I wouldn’t want to spend much time in the water in the PNW.
I normally carry my 9 foot inflatable on the bow with the engine off. It only weighs about 70 pounds and can be tossed over the bow rails easily. Get everyone in it and go to the cat.
I tow a 19 foot center console cat that would be a good escape boat as long as we could get to it in time. Fire and smoke may make it impossible to pull in from a 100 feet behind the boat.

I also have a 10 man life raft on the flybridge. It could be deployed again if we have time. (It’s an aviation raft that I just store on the boat, it’s not meant to be used so don’t sick the coast guard on me)

My boat came with a Fireboy 700. It was empty when I got the boat so I sent it in to be inspected and service. In researching why it lost its charge I found out the PO originally had a smaller bottle (500 I think) mounted horizontally on the roof of the engine room. He bought the larger one and installed it in the same place, horizontally. Fireboy advised me that this unit has to be mounted upright or the seals will leak over time. I intend to install the auto shutdown system but haven’t done it yet. I might just move it up on my list.

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47 Fire 10 May 2017 22:09 #42

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"Where have other 4788 owners installed CO/Smoke detectors, and how many?"

Chris

My CO detector is in the hall. (Zoom in on the arrow)
I thought these came standard on the 47's.

I don't have a smoke detector (probably should) My propane detector is in the galley.

Chris

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 22:18 #43

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Simonsen wrote: ... This might sound like a stupid question but how do you test the DSC on your radio? I have my radio on all the time and also have a waterproof handheld but I hear people doing "radio checks" all the time followed by the USCG telling them not to do that.

Raul - you did safety checks on vessels if I remember from talking with you...maybe you know?

I was talking with one of my techs here at my shop and he said "likely a turbo seal blew and the engine "ran away" " So, having a fire suppression system and engine cut off sounds like a pretty damn good idea. I was looking at the Fireboy systems yesterday and it's really not that expensive and one of the good benefits I see with them is they don't expel anything that leaves residue!


Testing transmit/receive on a marine VHF radio should never be done on Ch 16. There are a few ways to do it:
1- Hail a marina on their channel.
2- Hail a friend on a pre-determined frequency (channel 69, 69, 71, etc).
3- Have someone go out on a dinghy or go ashore* with a handheld VHF and hail them on pre-determined channel (69, 69, 71, etc).
4- Seatow has some automated radio check stations in the US, but their site does not list one for the Puget Sound.

* Note that the US FCC recently changed the rules prohibiting the use of handheld marine VHF radio use from land. Handheld marine VHF radios are now allowed to be used on land, providing they are communicating with a boat on the water.

DSC is a different issue. Here's the Coast Guard recommendation:

Test transmissions on VHF DSC calling channel 70 should be made to another VHF DSC radio by using a routine individual call to their Maritime Mobile Service Identity (MMSI).

For VHF DSC radios equipped with the Test Call feature, test transmissions should be made to the US Coast Guard MMSI 003669999 to receive an automated VHF DSC test response. You must use the “Test Call” category of your radio because “Individual” category calls to this address will not receive an automated response. For older radios not having a test call capability, testing can only be performed by using a routine individual call to their Maritime Mobile Service Indentity (MMSI).

UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCES SHALL A DSC DISTRESS ALERT BE SENT TO TEST YOUR RADIO. IT IS A VIOLATION OF THE RULES AND CAN RESULT IN HEAVY FINES.

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Boat fire 10 May 2017 23:27 #44

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Yes, we should be discussing this amongst ourselves.

Thinking out loud...if an engine fire is going to start, it's going to start when you're running in all likelihood. And you'll most likely be on the flybridge of most of these type boats when running (except for ones like the 4588/4788, where you might be in the pilothouse). As an owner of a 38xx (I'm pretty sure mine has an old halon system but no engine shutoff...I'll check this weekend though...I looked at several of these boats last year and I can't remember), I'm trying to think how I'd get off the flybridge without going down the stairs over the engine room if it were ablaze. Climb down the front of the flybridge helm, I suppose? I have a kayak on the bow, which could hold up to three of us. Life jackets upstairs on the flybridge...seems like a good place for those. I was thinking of picking up a hard dinghy and storing it on the swim platform. But maybe a lightweight inflatable stored on the bow is a safer idea?

I wonder how many cubic feet the engine room is on the 38xx's?

Dave

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Boat fire 11 May 2017 00:17 #45

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If a diesel engine is in a run away situation a engine shut off switch will do you no good. It.will not shut the engine down. It only shuts the diesel fuel supply off. At the point of run away it is no longer burning diesel.

Additionally the shut off switch is so that the engine shuts down while extinguishing the fire so that the engine doesn't suck more or pump more fresh air into the engine compartment continuing to feed the fire.

Thus the scenario of a runaway diesel engine....... the fireboy may or may not be effective especially if the engine doesn't shut down before it gets a renewed wiff of fresh air.

Just pointing out that a fire system probably won't be 100% effective if at all in a runaway diesel situation.

For those that don't know what causes a runaway diesel it's when the turbo charger seals fail ( or other crank case oims sourse) and oil begins to be pumped into the cylinders. The engine begins to burn uncontrollably engine oil and not diesel. It is impossible to shut down and will run full out until the crank case oil is depleted. It isn't always the turbo fault but regardless of the oil source the result is the same. Total destruction usually happens. It could easily catch fire.

The only way to shut down a runaway diesel is to completely shut off the air supply 100% until.it shuts down. If you are brave enough to get close to it.

I realize this is a video of a old truck but you will be able to understand the scope of the danger in the situation.



Also i would thjnk just as important as a life raft or dinghy would be a ditch bag.

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47 Fire 11 May 2017 03:08 #46

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Last time I was looking at these West Marine had a page in their catalogue with a tool to work out what you need and therefore the approx cost.

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Boat fire 11 May 2017 04:38 #47

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The OP stated, "I believe the turbo blew up." I'd like to know what makes him think this. Does he believe the turbo had a catastrophic failure and had pieces of turbine penetrate the housing? Why does he believe this?

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47 Fire 11 May 2017 06:00 #48

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Simonsen wrote: Thanks for posting about the Fireboy Systems Ruffryder..I'm going to look into those - and the emergency shut down systems.


While those provide a lot of safety, they are not a guarantee. This guy extinguished an engine fire, only to have smoldering wires re-erupt in flames after they'd exhausted all their fire extinguishers. A life raft saved the day.

www.thehulltruth.com/2235390-post13.html

robster_in_edmonds wrote: then wait on the bow until the heat was too much, jump in the water and swim away. I have a handheld VHF and a floating electric strobe, so that would help. We'd have maybe a half-hour before the hypothermia would win out. Maybe an hour of total life. Would USCG or a good Samaritan have time to get to us? This is one reason why we like to buddy-boat when possible.

If you live in a cold climate and don't have a survival suit on, don't assume you'll be anywhere near functional after you're in the water. Try this experiment some time. Get a 5 gallon bucket and fill it with ice, then add some water to displace the air and let it cool to freezing. Then stick your arm in it and see how long you can keep it there. It becomes physically painful after 10-20 seconds, and most people can't make it past 2 minutes. And that's just your arm being immersed. Imagine if your whole body were in water that cold.



For added perspective, drop a bunch of nuts and bolts to the bottom and try to screw them on after about a minute. You'll be surprised at how difficult such an "easy" task becomes in cold water. Even if you have a handheld VHF, you might encounter problems doing something as simple as changing the channel, or pushing the button to talk without losing your grip on the radio.

IMHO a life raft is strongly advised if you're in waters regularly below 60 F, and an absolute necessity if they're ever below 50 F. Here's the experience of a guy on a boat which sank in waters which based on the location and time of year were probably around 60 F.

www.bdoutdoors.com/forums/threads/most-d.../page-6#post-4114832

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47 Fire 11 May 2017 16:55 #49

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"The OP stated, "I believe the turbo blew up." I'd like to know what makes him think this. Does he believe the turbo had a catastrophic failure and had pieces of turbine penetrate the housing? Why does he believe this?"

Perhaps 'loose' diesel fuel from a leak in the engine room area - read page 5 of his trip log on the trawler forum in this link....

www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s36/leaving-...oxville-30949-5.html

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47 Fire 11 May 2017 16:58 #50

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" was talking with one of my techs here at my shop and he said "likely a turbo seal blew and the engine "ran away""

A very unlikely (remote) possibility with these engines....

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