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TOPIC: 38XX Manicooler maintenance

38XX Manicooler maintenance 23 Sep 2015 15:01 #26

  • Johnny Vintage
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Junior,

As long as you have had the ceramic coating done, you should be fine :silly:
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38XX Manicooler maintenance 23 Sep 2015 18:06 #27

  • kwjennings
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Hi there

You have posted your question in the wrong place.

However having crossed Lake Michigan from Grand Traverse Bay to Port de Mort I can answer. See our blog about the crossing here.

www.ourtardis.net/ourTARDIS/Daily_Log/En...SHIP_FESTIVAL_2.html

That is a long trip over waters that can get VERY rough. I would not attempt it alone this late in the year. Perhaps in the summer accompanied by a couple of other boats

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Last Edit: by kwjennings. Reason: spelling

38XX Manicooler maintenance 23 Sep 2015 19:37 #28

  • asaxet
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Looks good Jim,

Let me Know if you see any difference in engine temp when done...

Did mine a couple of years ago and indicated temp didnt change at all....

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Uff Da, 1993, 3888 in SFO Bay
Raymarine C series/EV-100 AP
Hino W04C-TI 210hp
Home Port , Woodmont Beach, WA

38XX Manicooler maintenance 24 Sep 2015 02:10 #29

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WOW! That's a clean manicooler. Call me a skeptic, but I believe those babies have been worked on before. 26 years in salt water has got to leave a mark somewhere, just sayin' :whistle:

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Two C's 1990 3888 MY, 175 Hinos, Hurth 630 Trannys[/B]
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38XX Manicooler maintenance 25 Sep 2015 14:21 #30

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Let me Know if you see any difference in engine temp when done...


Actually, no, I did not perceive any performance or temperature difference after the ceramic coating and bundle cleaning. However, after the maintenance I traveled over three hundred miles with the Admiral with no problems. That, coupled with the peace of mind and the knowledge of the status of the manicoolers justified the cost and time.

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Jim Gandee
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38XX Manicooler maintenance 25 Sep 2015 14:50 #31

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Did you do the risers and anything else that touched salt water at the same time?

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Started boating 1965
Bayliners owned: 26 Victoria, 28 Bounty, 32, 38, and 47 since 1996

38XX Manicooler maintenance 26 Sep 2015 04:28 #32

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Did you do the risers and anything else that touched salt water at the same time?


Fortunately the PO had installed SS Risers form Greenwood (sp?).
Absolutely no overheating issues.

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 26 Sep 2015 05:25 #33

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Hi kwjennings !
Could you let us know what will be the condition of your manicooler and riser when you take them off for maintenance after 6 years and 1100 hours whith the same antifreeze ?
Thank you.

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 26 Sep 2015 13:09 #34

  • smitty477
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Manicoolers can and should last a very long time if they are not overheated , kept isolated , and maintained within some reasonable timeframe. I do not know if these great looking manicoolers have previously been out for service but it is likely that the owner(s) did not overheat the engines and that they had a decent maintenance schedule in place.
These coolant systems like a number of other similar marine systems will last a very long time if you keep them filled with a suitable coolant mixed at 50%.
Any good low or no silicate ethylene glycol coolant which is diesel approved and rated for aluminum mixed 50/50 with DI water will suit the application well.
You want to be careful of any larger additive packages and to change the coolant every 2 years or so to avoid precipitation onto the inside surfaces - similarly other types of antifreeze with differing chemical bases and/or heavy additive packages could support heavy coatings when contamination occurs. In a marine diesel application contamination is unavoidable over time and the manicooler offers a good place for precipitation to occur.
I use a well known low silicate antifreeze at about $11.50/gal and add another gallon of DI water at about $0.50 for a net cost of $6 per gallon mixed - YMMV.
Remember that any good low silicate 50/50 ethylene glycol/DI water antifreeze mix will not allow any electric current to flow and will resist any 'mud' accumulation from precipitation until it is past a reasonable contamination level - at which point it will both form 'mud' and conduct electricity allowing electrolysis and denying a good exchange of heat where needed.

Here is a cut and paste from an older post I made a while back that may help a bit as well.......

Hino Manicoolers

There have been numerous posts about the Hino manicoolers as of late and it appears that more information would assist owners of what to expect with these assemblies. Although the Hino engines have a unique part number for their assemblies these principles do apply to a range of similar marine manicooler engines other the Hino. In the presentation of some of these thoughts some minor liberties are being taken in analogies as well as some exaggerations in order to make a point clearer - the intention is not to mislead. Please accept this information for any value as it was intended.

Enhancing Manicooler life - Well this is always a great idea with any mechanical device and can be especially valuable in the area of heavily loaded and expensive marine parts. While it is both admirable and prudent to take steps such as ‘ceramic coating’ of manicoolers this is to be considered ‘extra credit’ in the manicooler book of maintenance. Extra credit is the + 5 to 10 points you can get on a test after the basic 100 point score is added up. So of course this is a great thing to do but only if you have already taken care of the core maintenance items for your engines which constitute the base of your extra work.

A place to start - Often people ask ‘how long will these manicoolers last’ and then we get a bunch of replies most of which are correct to a certain degree but lack information most often due to the way the question is asked. So let’s answer this question based upon a different set of given parameters as a starting point for comparison - ‘How long will a manicooler last if it is filled with a perfect mix of antifreeze and DI water, subjected to a constant room temperature of 65 Degrees F only, and sealed inside box?
Well that answer would likely be something like this - “in the range of millions of years”.
But this answer has no real value to us as we utilize our boats in varied ways and in wildly varying environments. We could begin to then discuss each and every one of these variations as a method to determine a lifespan - but that would also be very specific to each variable chosen and have limited use for us. Alternately one of the soft ‘tools’ we used to use when engineering new systems was an analysis tool that would basically ask “ how can we most easily make this part fail?”. That tool was called a force field analysis and after it was reasonably completed by the team we could gather up the best methods to force the part to fail, prioritize them, and then figure out the best ways to combat those failure mechanisms.

How to force a manicooler failure - Although manicoolers are more robust than any of us normally would give them credit for there are a number of ways in which we can force these parts to fail prematurely. These methods can be grouped into a few categories but fortunately we are not interested in most of these categories such as hitting them with a 12# sledge hammer. Similarly we do not often talk about ignoring obvious external leaks or running the engines without the raw water valves open as we all can clearly understand those types of cause and effect failures. The area that this topic almost always intends to address are those failures which occur internal to the manicooler assembly and are directly or indirectly related to erosion. Internal erosion occurs on the manicooler when a ‘boiling’ takes place on the inside of the aluminum runners as supported by enough heat as well as a specific spot for the boiling to originate from. Now we can focus only on this particular failure mechanism of manicooler erosion and what is the best method to generate it.


Easiest way to force a new manicooler to fail from internal erosion - We have a brand new boat that is waiting for us to force a manicooler failure but it has to be this exact failure and cannot be a previously discussed obvious ‘trick’(IE -we cannot just close the raw water valve).
The best way to generate this erosion failure in the manicooler is to elevate the temperature as high as possible as well as limit the ability of the coolant to accept and spread out the heat. So on a new engine the easiest ways to do these two things will be the following:

1. Overprop the boat so as to allow it to get fully on plane and to accept a full throttle of fuel load but only allow it to achieve about 90% of max rpms’s. This will allow almost a full load of fuel but not allow the engine to realize its full cooling capability from either air, water, or the oil heat transfer. Additionally items such as the engines fuel timing will be off since they are mapped to be correct only for a specific load at a specific rpm - later relative fuel timing and less air turbulence will just add more relative heat.
2. Open the radiator cap and dilute the neutral antifreeze mixture, also add some contaminants in there (such as salt) which will further degrade the heat extraction capability as well as supply a needed point for the erosion to work from.

These two will work pretty well together as the engine will put tremendous amounts of heat into the manicooler runners and the contaminated coolant will offer less ability to pull heat away - while at the same time the contaminants from small local spots which support the boiling inside the manicooler which generates the erosion we are looking for. All we have to do now is maintain this exact environment long enough for the erosion to work its way all the way through the manicooler. For many of us that have witnessed this treatment it will still take hundreds of hours to work its way through the aluminum runner right adjacent to the exhaust ports.

Other methods to force this failure - By this time any seasoned boat owner is likely anxious to add all of the ‘other’ and ‘better’ ways to either add heat into the runners or limit the ability to pull the heat away. There is no doubt that you will all be correct in that there are limitless methods to add to these two areas of destruction. It is also a good time to point out that by working more than one of these methods at the same time the ability to force a local failure becomes easier. A decent example of this would be to add a single partial injector failure to our test case above which will put an even greater heat load into one runner of the manicooler. So it is also good to note how interactive all of these failure mechanisms (or maintenance items if you will) are related to one another.

Let’s list a few ways to add combustion heat in the runner - Not intended to be all inclusive here are a few examples:
• Partially blocked air flow
• Low turbo output
• Valve adjustment
• Fuel timing
• Nozzle spay pattern
• Head torque
• Partially restricted exhaust

And a few ways to defeat the heats escape -
• Partially blocked strainer or raw water valve
• Partially collapsed raw water inlet hoses
• Raw water pump partial failure
• ‘Mud’ buildup in coolant bundles
• Coolant pump belts
• Coolant pump vanes
• Thermostat
• Poor or old lube oil

How about detection? - Well there is some good news here because besides the fact that you will know you are not up to date on the maintenance items there are few obvious ways to detect this coming on. They kinda fit into groups which are relatively easy to review each time out and they include baseline gage readings, exterior engine signs, combustion symptoms, and added gage protection.
-Gage readings would suggest you take a digital picture at varied rpm’s of all of the standard gages to use as a comparison. This can then be used to see if you are drifting towards signs of extra heat in the engine. Engine temps, oil pressure, speed at a given rpm can all be indicators over time.

-Exterior engine signs will be things like how far the removed paint extends along the manicooler runner where it meets the head, how much mud is in the bottom of overflow bottles, how much mud can we wiped off of the bundle under the rad cap, and how far the rust extends from the turbo base where it attaches at the manicooler.
-Combustion symptoms would be smoke that is black in nature at cruise and or increased accumulated soot on the transom.
- The best real time indicators are adding gages that read boost and exhaust gas temperatures (EGT) known as pyrometers. Both of these gages can be installed for less than a few hundred bucks and tell you much better what the engine is doing internally.

Anything that can be done to prevent these basic causes of failures will add a good deal to the life of your engines and also allow any ‘extra credit’ you do to be worth that much more. So please prop the boat correctly and stay on top of your maintenance schedule so your manicoolers will outlive all of us.

Hope this helps,
Ron and Karen
“No Worries”
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Northport NY

38XX Manicooler maintenance 26 Sep 2015 13:24 #35

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Here is a picture of the manicooler housing apart for cleaning...

im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b5cc09b3127cc...0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Here is a picture of the bundle out for mud removal - I use a tray for wallpaper to soak with acid for about 15 minutes followed by a soda ash neutralization and then rinse heavily....

im1.shutterfly.com/media/47b5cc09b3127cc...0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400/

Here I am testing antifreeze mixes for electrical conductivity and learning how little contamination is required to mess it up....

im1.shutterfly.com/media/47a0db30b3127cc...D0/rx%3D550/ry%3D400

Happy boating - hope this helps

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Northport NY

38XX Manicooler maintenance 21 Nov 2015 17:22 #36

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How do you put the bundle back in and seal it from leaks.

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 21 Nov 2015 17:25 #37

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Bobd wrote: How do you put the bundle back in and seal it from leaks.


Whichever radiator shop cleaned the bundle should have checked the bundle itself for leaks. The new big O rings you install under the end caps of the maincooler casting do the sealing job. Most folks then do a leak check of the entire uninstalled maincooler using a temp hose to connect input and output and a radiator pressure tester.

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Started boating 1965
Bayliners owned: 26 Victoria, 28 Bounty, 32, 38, and 47 since 1996

38XX Manicooler maintenance 21 Nov 2015 17:53 #38

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They look real good I just pulled mine off after 25 years and looks the same. I am not going to coat them. I took the bundles to a radiator shop for tanking and pressure testing. They are in great condition. I will purchase a new gasket set and o-rings. How do you put the bundles back in. Do you need to grease the o rings. Do you need to use permatex or the right stuff when putting the end caps or manifolds back on the engine?

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 21 Nov 2015 22:17 #39

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They pressure tested the bundle after boiling. It is perfect. Do you slip the bundle back in and than attach the new o-rings, No sealant needed on end caps?

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 21 Nov 2015 22:33 #40

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Everyone has a different view on sealant or no sealant necessary - but you must test for electrical continuity between the brass end cap & the cooler body once assembled. For me this was simply a repeated trial & error process, making slight changes to the order of tightening. Then suddenly for no real discernible reason, you end up with it tight & no electrical continuity between the two dissimilar metals. Fortunately I was doing this on a bench. Given the difficulties of re-assembly to ensure no continuity, no sealant was used my myself.

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 22 Nov 2015 07:09 #41

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When I reassembled my coolers/bundles I lubed the o rings with Dow Corning #4. This allows the o rings to seat easier. I then tested for continuity between the cooler and bundle with an ohm meter. Zero continuity is the goal.

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 22 Nov 2015 16:18 #42

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Would you have the R&R info to send to me for the My e mail address is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.

I removed the manifold and riser but could use more information for re installing.

Thank you.

Bob

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 22 Nov 2015 19:04 #43

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Bobd,

If your request was directed at me I'll answer it here in case others are interested.

Once removed from the engine I separated the bundles from the manicooler. I had each cooler ceramic coated, total cost for both was about $500. I had both bundles descaled at a radiator shop for about $125. I reassembled the bundles into the coolers on my workbench for ease of access. Centering the bundle, I installed the lubed o ring on one end and tightened the cap. Then I installed the lubed o ring on the other end, manually massaged the bundle best I could to assure the o ring was seated and installed the cap. Be sure to install the caps in the proper orientation. The o rings should isolate the bundles from the cooler. This can be confirmed with a multi meter on the ohm function. Simply probe the bundle, through an opening in the cooler, and the cooler itself and verify an infinite reading (no electrical current). Reseating of the orings may be required to obtain electrical isolation. Once done install new exhaust gaskets and the now complete manicooler on the engine. Pretty easy job really.
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38XX Manicooler maintenance 22 Nov 2015 22:57 #44

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Jim,
Thanks for the write up, great info that I'll put away for future reference.

Knowing that hino owners obsess over coolant brands, I've found one that I'm going to try this spring when I change coolant:
prestone.com/enmx/prestone_extended_life...es_hd_96_concentrate
It's silicate, phosphate and borate free and meets cat ec1 specs. Hopefully it should work well. Finding cummins es compleat up here is proving to be a challenge.

James
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1989 Bayliner 3888, 175 Hinos,
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38XX Manicooler maintenance 25 Nov 2015 13:32 #45

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looking up fleetguard and found the propylene glycol and a ethylene glycol, wich one did earl use on your boat?

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1993 43.88 bayliner motoryatch

38XX Manicooler maintenance 25 Nov 2015 14:29 #46

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"Would you have the R&R info to send to me for the My e mail address is This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
I removed the manifold and riser but could use more information for re installing.
Thank you.
Bob"

Sent - hope it helps

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 25 Nov 2015 16:11 #47

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I've read in my manual a bath of muriatic acid will loosen the scale then, use a metal rod to knock the scale off. The acid is available at swimming pool supply stores. However, as with any acids use caution and protective gear!

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 14 Jan 2016 18:51 #48

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Smitty: I am also about to embark on a mani cooler removal and check. If you still have the information on procedure, could you send them to a; This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.. Thanks so much in advance.
Also, I am in Southern California. Do you know any local service people for rebuild and ceramic coating, or will I be better off shipping them up to Washingtona/

Gary Webster

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 14 Jan 2016 19:43 #49

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Gary - on its way.
This is who you want...
www.baylinerguru.com/about.html

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38XX Manicooler maintenance 15 Jan 2016 04:02 #50

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Also, I am in Southern California. Do you know any local service people for rebuild and ceramic coating, or will I be better off shipping them up to Washingtona/
[/quote

Gary, I'm here in SoCal and had my manicoolers ceramic coated by Young Guns Performance Coating in Rancho Cucamunga. www.younggun1.com/

I drove my coolers to them and picked them up a few days later. They were competitively priced. IIRC they charged me about $500 for both coolers including the end caps, metal tubing and inspection covers. They did a good job for me. My notes list my contact as Sam. He'll recall the parts as soon as he sees them since he has now done several sets that I know of.

The ceramic coating is polished by tumbling the coated parts in a tub of ceramic balls various sizes 1/16" up to about 1/4" in diameter. I suggest you take a few moments to make sure NONE of the balls remain in the manicooler prior to bundle assembly and installation as they could theoretically dislodge only to become stuck in a cooling passage somewhere. You might already know this but new O-rings are highly recommended when installing the bundles in the coolers. Once installed verify, with an ohm meter there is no continuity between the cooler and bundle.

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