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TOPIC: What is the preferred heat source?

What is the preferred heat source? 13 Dec 2016 22:19 #1

  • Tdinger
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Good day all,
Well, our first winter on our 1982 40ft Bodega, and we are trying to establish the best way to heat the cabin. We live on the Columbia river in Oregon, and temps at the coldest are around the mid-20's. Currently are using 3 warm oil heaters, my guess is our power bill for our first month on is gonna be ugly....
Looking at using a Buddy Propane heater while we are there, and awake... too paranoid to leave something like that on while we sleep.

I'd welcome any ideas without busting the budget.
Todd

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 02:30 #2

  • flyman219
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The Buddy propane heater doesn't seem too economical, from the manufacturer,

"Provides 3 to 6 hours of heat with 1-lb. propane cylinder and 48 to 110 hours with a 20-lb. tank "

A 15lb Blue Rhino tank costs about $20, that would be about $10 a day or $300 per month plus the hassle of tank changes. There must be a better choice.

I think I'd look for a small fan powered electric space heater.

Mike

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 03:01 #3

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Check Webasto. they make heaters. Most of us around here, use central air with reverse cycles for heat. That way we are on generator or shore power. The stand alone heaters have to be installed to eliminate moisture or you have a mold maker in addition to a heater. some of the diesel heaters use about .24 ltrs an hour. Pretty good for a 40 foot system.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 03:41 #4

  • iceclimber
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When you are on shore power, you probably already own the safest and most efficient electric heaters. No electric heater is really "efficient" actually. I have the big buddy heater and it is quite safe with low O2 sensor and tip over protection. That's the cheapest option I've come across when hooked to a big tank of propane, and the little electric fan adapter can be found on ebay for cheap. You just have to decide if you want these work around solutions or invest big bucks in a more permanent and robust solution. I had a houseboat buddy that used a couple of wall mounted propane heaters that were 30k BTU each. He said it was a fraction of a diesel heat system to set up. They looked something like this, not sure if that's the exact model. His had blowers and would drive you out of the boat.

www.homedepot.com/p/Dyna-Glo-30-000-BTU-...bh8tACFUlNfgodfnwHMA

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 04:16 #5

  • ksanders
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Diesel is generally the preferred heat source, due to its reliability and its low cost per BTU of heat output due to its low cost per BTU output.

A gallon of #2 diesel has about 138,000 BTU's of stored energy.
At 80% efficiency you'll get about 110,400 BUT's of heat out of a gallon.

1 Kilowatt of electricity has 3412 BTU of energy
Electric heat is 100% efficient

110,400/3412 = 32.35 KW of energy in a gallon of diesel "heat"

If diesel costs $2.50 a gallon then the equilivent cost per KW is $.077

If you are paying $2.50 a gallon for diesel, and 7.7C per KWH the two heat sources are pretty much awash cost wise.

I do not knw how much you pay for electricity in Portland, buy if my memory serves correctly you are paying among the lowest costs per KWH in the country, so it might be a good idea to realistically compare.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 04:39 #6

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Our boat is a much smaller 3270 and except for the few really cold spells two electric space heaters work fine. When it gets really cold I would like to just plug in another electric space heater but the electric service to the boat won't allow for that. So I am in the midst of installing a free standing diesel heater for the extreme situations. Otherwise the electric space heater are doing a great job. I should add that the need for the extra heat is to please the Admiral.


Greg
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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 04:51 #7

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Mr. Darcy wrote: Our boat is a much smaller 3270 and except for the few really cold spells two electric space heaters work fine. When it gets really cold I would like to just plug in another electric space heater but the electric service to the boat won't allow for that. So I am in the midst of installing a free standing diesel heater for the extreme situations. Otherwise the electric space heater are doing a great job. I should add that the need for the extra heat is to please the Admiral.


Greg


The real cost/benefit lol.

Technically electricity is a secondary heat source and the least efficient energy source but anyway. I looked at exactly that setup (free standing diesel) for my 32 and stuck with the big buddy heater. If it's that cold the Admiral exercises rank and no boat.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 14 Dec 2016 05:03 #8

  • The Other Gary
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I will pay about $2100 for 5 months of winter electric as we have the highest electric rates in North America plus shrinkwrapping, dock rent and engine winterizing.
It adds up to the point that I will be devoting those bucks, plus quite a bit more, to heading south next winter.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 15 Dec 2016 01:20 #9

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The Other Gary wrote: I will pay about $2100 for 5 months of winter electric as we have the highest electric rates in North America plus shrinkwrapping, dock rent and engine winterizing.
It adds up to the point that I will be devoting those bucks, plus quite a bit more, to heading south next winter.


Now you are talking sense. Where you thinking.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 15 Dec 2016 02:28 #10

  • Shawnh
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We heat with two space heaters I picked up from west marine. They are set to use 900 watts each, but can go up to 1500 watts. They keep the boat in the mid 60's with no problems. Even into the mid 20's these work fine. But, with only 30 amp service on our 41 ft boat, we shut one off to run the microwave, stove top or a hair dryer. (Our next boat will have more power service)

We also have a diesel hydronic heater on board. We do use it for a quick warm up if we are away for a day or more with the electric heaters off. But, day to day, find it noisy (even tho it is not very noisy)

I would think this week will tell you what works. I think we will be in the upper teens by Saturday morning.
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What is the preferred heat sourse? 15 Dec 2016 03:13 #11

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iceclimber wrote:

Mr. Darcy wrote: Our boat is a much smaller 3270 and except for the few really cold spells two electric space heaters work fine. When it gets really cold I would like to just plug in another electric space heater but the electric service to the boat won't allow for that. So I am in the midst of installing a free standing diesel heater for the extreme situations. Otherwise the electric space heater are doing a great job. I should add that the need for the extra heat is to please the Admiral.


Greg


The real cost/benefit lol.

Technically electricity is a secondary heat source and the least efficient energy source but anyway. I looked at exactly that setup (free standing diesel) for my 32 and stuck with the big buddy heater. If it's that cold the Admiral exercises rank and no boat.


According to what I studied in second year physics, electric heat is as close to one hundred percent efficient as can be. In some locations it is very expensive but that is not the case for Mr. Darcy. An all you can use 30 amp service is included in the under $200 a month slip rent, which also includes water and holding tank pump out. So how do your physics come up with electric heat as being Inefficient? I would really appreciate seeing you calculations on that to see if my text book and the instructor were actually wrong or not. I have to pay beyond the slip fee for all the diesel to fire the freestanding heater making it my "secondary" heat source. Also physically the least energy efficient.


Greg

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Newport, Oregon
South Beach Marina
1986 3270 with twin 110 HP Hino diesels. Name of boat "Mr. Darcy"
Past work history: Prototyping, tooling, and repair for Reinell,. General fiberglass boat repair starting in 1976.
Also worked as heavy equipment mechanic, and machinery mechanic for over 30 years....

What is the preferred heat sourse? 15 Dec 2016 04:45 #12

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Mr. Darcy wrote:

iceclimber wrote:

Mr. Darcy wrote: Our boat is a much smaller 3270 and except for the few really cold spells two electric space heaters work fine. When it gets really cold I would like to just plug in another electric space heater but the electric service to the boat won't allow for that. So I am in the midst of installing a free standing diesel heater for the extreme situations. Otherwise the electric space heater are doing a great job. I should add that the need for the extra heat is to please the Admiral.


Greg


The real cost/benefit lol.

Technically electricity is a secondary heat source and the least efficient energy source but anyway. I looked at exactly that setup (free standing diesel) for my 32 and stuck with the big buddy heater. If it's that cold the Admiral exercises rank and no boat.


According to what I studied in second year physics, electric heat is as close to one hundred percent efficient as can be. In some locations it is very expensive but that is not the case for Mr. Darcy. An all you can use 30 amp service is included in the under $200 a month slip rent, which also includes water and holding tank pump out. So how do your physics come up with electric heat as being Inefficient? I would really appreciate seeing you calculations on that to see if my text book and the instructor were actually wrong or not. I have to pay beyond the slip fee for all the diesel to fire the freestanding heater making it my "secondary" heat source. Also physically the least energy efficient.


Greg


Correct!!!

Electric heat is 100% efficient. Zero percent of the heat value in a Kilowatt hour escapes the area being heated.

As indicated in my post above the break even point at $2.50 per gallon of diesel is about 7 cents per kilowatt hour.

At my marina I pay $.26 per kilowatt hour, but Portland where the OP is, has some of the lowest electric costs in the nation due to the low cost of locally generated hydroelectric electricity, so he really needs to analyze his actual energy costs to determine the cheapest way to heat his liveaboard boat.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 15 Dec 2016 05:59 #13

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iceclimber wrote:

The Other Gary wrote: I will pay about $2100 for 5 months of winter electric as we have the highest electric rates in North America plus shrinkwrapping, dock rent and engine winterizing.
It adds up to the point that I will be devoting those bucks, plus quite a bit more, to heading south next winter.


Now you are talking sense. Where you thinking.


Green turtle Cay and Marsh harbour will do me just fine. Don't like Nassau or Freeport

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What is the preferred heat source? 15 Dec 2016 14:46 #14

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Thank you everyone for the good conversation, doing a little research on the defender diesel fireplace / furnace. With gasoline engines that would mean putting in a secondary fuel tank and really perplexed as to how to run the exhaust flue given the design of the boat.
Does anybody have any experience with these units? Or is there another brand I should be looking at, they are not inexpensive however they seem to be very highly rated...

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 16 Dec 2016 16:53 #15

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Mr. Darcy wrote:

iceclimber wrote:

Mr. Darcy wrote: Our boat is a much smaller 3270 and except for the few really cold spells two electric space heaters work fine. When it gets really cold I would like to just plug in another electric space heater but the electric service to the boat won't allow for that. So I am in the midst of installing a free standing diesel heater for the extreme situations. Otherwise the electric space heater are doing a great job. I should add that the need for the extra heat is to please the Admiral.


Greg


The real cost/benefit lol.

Technically electricity is a secondary heat source and the least efficient energy source but anyway. I looked at exactly that setup (free standing diesel) for my 32 and stuck with the big buddy heater. If it's that cold the Admiral exercises rank and no boat.


According to what I studied in second year physics, electric heat is as close to one hundred percent efficient as can be. In some locations it is very expensive but that is not the case for Mr. Darcy. An all you can use 30 amp service is included in the under $200 a month slip rent, which also includes water and holding tank pump out. So how do your physics come up with electric heat as being Inefficient? I would really appreciate seeing you calculations on that to see if my text book and the instructor were actually wrong or not. I have to pay beyond the slip fee for all the diesel to fire the freestanding heater making it my "secondary" heat source. Also physically the least energy efficient.


Greg


Sigh. As I was typing that, I thought "oh I'll just start some pointless argument". If you took physics you would know what I was referring too. Electricity is a secondary energy source. It has to be created, it's very expensive and inefficient to create, even solar has significant overhead to arrive at the finished product, although as an investment it starts to pan out. I was not referring to each and every person's individual situation, as the OP mentioned he pays for electricity. You don't. I get that. If you read my response you will see that I referred to what we call a "cost/benefit" which means how much do I have to invest, what kind of BTU's do I get out, and how much is the fuel source going to cost.
Go ask your instructor what the most efficient source of heat is, and he will tell you what I did.

If I had the OP's issue with gas engines, I'd look at propane. OP, don't forget the sniffers :)

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What is the preferred heat source? 16 Dec 2016 17:41 #16

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With 120V - 30A shore power the limit will be 3600 watts. That's a bit under 12,300 BTU total, assuming nothing else is run. In reality, you will probably have 3000 watts or about 10,200 BTU available; this is due to other electrical loads. 3000W is the max capacity of two plug-in space heaters (1500W ea). For comparison I have a 37' Bayliner with a lot less interior space than a 40' Bodega. My boat has an 18,750 BTU diesel furnace and I feel this is the minimum to keep the boat warm in sub-freezing weather. Note that his is 84% higher heating capacity than provided by 3000W worth of space heaters.

With regards to a buddy-type heater. I've used them in my previous boats, but only when we were awake. I also had three O2 detectors installed on the boat: salon, and both berths. I personally do not like the idea of running a buddy heater off a standard propane tank on a boat.

I think you have a couple of alternatives: a diesel heater or a propane heater. If your boat has an existing propane system, a propane furnace or heater may work best. I recommend the installation and propane feed be done following all current ABYC requirements. If not installed already, I recommend a propane detector/alarm be installed. A diesel heater may not be that hard to install. You will need to add a diesel tank, but that's pretty easy to do.

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What is the preferred heat source? 16 Dec 2016 18:04 #17

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Portland Oregon has a electricity cost of 8.45 cents per KWH

I'd be willing to bet that is within spitting distance of the cost of diesel as a heat source. (We can go over the math again if anybody wants to :) )

If I were a liveaboard in Portland I'd be seriously considering electric for my heating needs.

This might require an additional power inlet to the boat. It might require getting from the marina an additional power feed or upgrading the existing one.

I am a huge fan of diesel heat. That might be the best solution for the OP, but with the cost of electricity as low as it is in his location, electric is financially a contender.

I would not go with propane. certainly not with the little portable units. without even delving into the safety aspects, those little bottles of propane are probably one of the most expensive sources of energy (in BTU's) you can find.

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What is the preferred heat source? 16 Dec 2016 19:20 #18

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ksanders wrote: Portland Oregon has a electricity cost of 8.45 cents per KWH

I'd be willing to bet that is within spitting distance of the cost of diesel as a heat source. (We can go over the math again if anybody wants to :) )

If I were a liveaboard in Portland I'd be seriously considering electric for my heating needs.

This might require an additional power inlet to the boat. It might require getting from the marina an additional power feed or upgrading the existing one.

I am a huge fan of diesel heat. That might be the best solution for the OP, but with the cost of electricity as low as it is in his location, electric is financially a contender.

I would not go with propane. certainly not with the little portable units. without even delving into the safety aspects, those little bottles of propane are probably one of the most expensive sources of energy (in BTU's) you can find.


The problem with electric is you run out of capacity on your boat. We can go over the math again. There is nothing unsafe about propane Kevin, otherwise why would it be installed on so many boats.

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What is the preferred heat source? 06 Feb 2017 22:37 #19

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We live aboard in Portland on our 3988. Last winter with electric heat only we were popping breakers all the time. Running two reverse heat units and one of those inferred heaters from home depot. Burned up a shore power cord. Really had to learn to manage the loads. Last spring had a hydronic diesel furnace installed. Best heat ever. But with the really cold temps it burns through the fuel. I would say really about the same price between the two. We have learned to run the reverse heat during the days and run the furnace in the evening for a more consistent heat.
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What is the preferred heat sourse? 07 Feb 2017 07:21 #20

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ksanders wrote: Diesel is generally the preferred heat source, due to its reliability and its low cost per BTU of heat output due to its low cost per BTU output.

Diesel = heating oil. It's the same stuff. They just add a pink dye to heating oil so they can catch you if you use it in a diesel engine (it's cheaper because it doesn't have transportation fuel taxes added).

Mr. Darcy wrote: According to what I studied in second year physics, electric heat is as close to one hundred percent efficient as can be.

For local heat production, all heat sources are 100% efficient. When you talk about engine efficiency, you're talking about the fraction of chemical energy converted to mechanical energy. The remainder is lost as... heat. So if your intent is to produce heat, all methods of heating (locally) are 100% efficient. Diesel (fuel oil), wood, gas, coal - all are 100% efficient at producing heat.

The problem with electric heat is that it's not produced locally. Using coal as an example, modern coal plants are about 40% efficient. So they burn the coal, and 40% of the energy is converted into electricity. 60% of it is converted into heat, but that heat is at the power plant, not in your house or boat, so is wasted. As a result, electric heat ends up being the most expensive form of heating unless the area you live in has extremely low electricity prices (around 5 cents/kWh).

It's actually possible to exceed 100% efficiency by use of a heat pump. Unlike a heater, a heat pump doesn't produce heat. It moves heat from outside to inside (basically an air conditioner working in reverse). With the right temperature conditions, it's possible to move heat inside using less energy than that heat contains, technically giving it over 100% efficiency. But heat pumps are most effective when the outside air/water temperature is around 50-60 F. Below that and there isn't enough heat outside to effectively pump it inside. OP lists 20 F conditions. At those temperatures, heat pumps would just turn on a heating element turning it into an electric heater.

Generally, excluding heat pumps, natural gas tends to be cheapest, followed closely by propane. Then coal (very dirty - avoid), then oil (varies with the price of a barrel of oil), then electric. Wood is a wild card, varying with the availability of wood in your area.

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What is the preferred heat sourse? 12 Feb 2017 14:38 #21

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I agree with the others. 30 amp service isn't enough to keep the boat comfy and run anything else. Our 4788 has four factory installed electric heaters. I never run more than three at a time for load sharing.

My experience is around 32F. I cannot keep the salon warm enough running only the salon and companionway electrics. The hydronic diesel furnace heats the entire boat up quickly and has three zones. These furnaces are very small and deliver a lot of heat, ours is 45,000 BTU. I know that others ave installed a separate diesel tank on gas boats, I recommend considering a diesel system zoned to keep your entire boat warm.

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What is the preferred heat source? 12 Feb 2017 15:04 #22

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Folks in Missouri where it gets down to 0 use 220 volt electric heaters. They have a 220 volt recepticle installed at the peddistal and run a properly size cord to run the heater. Apparently the 220 volt heaters are more economical to operate.

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What is the preferred heat source? 12 Feb 2017 15:38 #23

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It's all a matter of how much electrical power is available at the pedestal and how the boat is wired: P (watts) = I (amps) x V (volts). Here is the theoretical maximum power that can be used on various boat electrical configurations. I say theoretical because often the voltage is a bit less than the nominal, for a number of reasons. Keep in mind that not all that power may be available to heat the boat. Some of it may be used for other electrical loads.

30A service at 120 VAC: 3,600 Watts
50A service at 120 VAC: 6,000 Watts
60A service at 120 VAC: 7,200 Watts (this is a boat with dual 30A inlets, each connected to a separate 30A source)
50A service at 240 VAC: 12,000 Watts
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