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TOPIC: 2010 Bayliner impressions

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 15:46 #1

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YEsterday I decided to take my neighbor up to the marinas and check out some boats, since we missed the Chicago Boat Show. I figured I would share some impressions of the 2010s, and the price increases.

Overall, if you are willing to accept a stock boat, there are still a select few deals to be had. They had a leftover 2008 210 Discovery bowrider for sale for $25,000. You can still get a basic 185 BR with a 3.0, sport seating, and a bimini top for $18,000. They also had some cruisers sitting outside, but I didn't go out and look at them. Looked like a couple of 245s, a 285, and a leftover Discovery 289...quite possibly the same one that was for sale for under $60,000 last fall.

The problem is options, specifically engine options. If you are a horsepower junky like I am, take that same 185BR, and add:

Preferred equipment package (a.k.a. Family Fun Package)
Sport seating
Fiberglass floor with carpet runners
4.3L MPI (a SIX THOUSAND DOLLAR upgrade, I might add)

And your total price? $29,XXX. Yes ladies and gentlemen, a thirty thousand dollar Bayliner 185. Please note this is BEFORE the coming catalytic converters which will add another $1,500 - $3,000 to the price for the 2011s.

They also had a 2009 245 parked next to a 2010 245. If there is any doubt about the "new" 2010 245, it should be erased the second you look at the swim platform: It still has "CIERA" embossed in the nonskid deck. As in from when it was a 2455 Ciera back in 2001. With a 5.0 A1, it was just shy of 50 large.

The 2009 245 (which is now the 255) is actually much larger than I was expecting. Its noticably larger than the old 245 parked next to it, with a better layout and noticably more cabin room. I can see why Bayliner canned the 265 in lieu of this boat. This one is cheaper than the 265 with the same interior and exterior room, and a slightly smaller footprint. This one was 10 grand more than the '10 245, with a 5.0MPI B3.

All in all, it reaffirmed my belief that boat prices are completely out of control, and I am firmly into looking at used boats. When a 19 foot BR costs as much as an entry level BMW, you have a serious problem on your hands.

I will say that I think Bayliner's fit and finish has improved, albiet at the cost of content. THe gel finish and general attention to detail were on par, I felt, with the Sea Ray 185 Sport which we also looked at. ($35,000? Really?)

And Bayliner, WHY did you remove the "Build Your Own" option on the website? You could have saved me half the day in driving up to the dealer.

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Matt Train
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Chicagoland, IL

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 19:05 #2

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Download_Complete;410056 wrote: The problem is options, specifically engine options. If you are a horsepower junky like I am, take that same 185BR, and add:

Preferred equipment package (a.k.a. Family Fun Package)
Sport seating
Fiberglass floor with carpet runners
4.3L MPI (a SIX THOUSAND DOLLAR upgrade, I might add)

And your total price? $29,XXX. Yes ladies and gentlemen, a thirty thousand dollar Bayliner 185. Please note this is BEFORE the coming catalytic converters which will add another $1,500 - $3,000 to the price for the 2011s.



Aww, Matt, I will sell you mine for 20K :D

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Peggy
Husband Chuck and Badger the Border Collie
2006 Bayliner 185 4.3 Alpha One "Jackpot"

2008 Yamaha FX Cruiser HO PWC 160hp "Yamagogo"
In memory of "Seapuppy". :arr. Live each Day to the Fullest

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 20:26 #3

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Skygazer;410131 wrote: Aww, Matt, I will sell you mine for 20K :D


Really? We could trade. I have some oceanfront property in the Mojave I'd like to unload. You'd make a KILLING.

:)

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Matt Train
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Chicagoland, IL

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 20:59 #4

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New boat prices are OUTRAGOUS! I am not sure how the industry is going to get turned around with manufacturers charging so much. With the price of new boats, people need second mortages to purchase them and until a person can get one as easy in the past (problem being no equity in their house), boat sales will not recover.

Frank

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2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:04 #5

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Download_Complete;410157 wrote: Really? We could trade. I have some oceanfront property in the Mojave I'd like to unload. You'd make a KILLING.

:)


Good times!

After going to the show, outside of one deal I considered, I was blown away by the prices.

I am glad to have my "old" boat! :D

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Peggy
Husband Chuck and Badger the Border Collie
2006 Bayliner 185 4.3 Alpha One "Jackpot"

2008 Yamaha FX Cruiser HO PWC 160hp "Yamagogo"
In memory of "Seapuppy". :arr. Live each Day to the Fullest

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:16 #6

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Maybe the should start manufacturing in China. That would cut costs, but ultimately give them (the Chinese) more power....:kidding

How do you think us in the UK feel? A $20,000 boat to you is £20,000 to us, which translates back into $33K. Plus the cost of gas, and no doubt the hippies will impose some kind of tax on us soon enough.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:29 #7

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craig007;410197 wrote: Maybe the should start manufacturing in China. That would cut costs, but ultimately give them (the Chinese) more power....:kidding

How do you think us in the UK feel? A $20,000 boat to you is £20,000 to us, which translates back into $33K. Plus the cost of gas, and no doubt the hippies will impose some kind of tax on us soon enough.



Yeah, but you get stuff like Ford Focus RSs, Renaults, Peugeots, Ariel Atoms, manual transmissions in EVERYTHING, awesome diesels, Astra VXRs, Sciroccos, Escort RS Cosworths, and other absolutely awesome things which we don't get.

You guys get Mondeo ST220s, and we get stuck with Chevy Malbus. Life is just not fair.

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Matt Train
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Chicagoland, IL

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:37 #8

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Download_Complete;410205 wrote: Yeah, but you get stuff like Ford Focus RSs, Renaults, Peugeots, Ariel Atoms, manual transmissions in EVERYTHING, awesome diesels, Astra VXRs, Sciroccos, Escort RS Cosworths, and other absolutely awesome things which we don't get.

You guys get Mondeo ST220s, and we get stuck with Chevy Malbus. Life is just not fair.


Pfft. We had Xr4TI's in the US, they made a lot of noise but didn't really go anywhere. Diesel tech is all we're missing.

I picked up a brand new GTO on the red tag sale in 2004 for under $25k. The styling was not impressive, but the build quality was great (especially for GM), RWD + LS1 was awesome. Handling was just alright but it wasn't light for a coupe.

GM makes interesting trucks but the cars are mainly just blah. I thought about trading in the GTO for a CTS-V, but it felt like driving a sponge.

Wonder if there will be a true "Bayliner" of boats coming out of this economic state. It'd be interesting for a small shop to build some mid-sized cruisers (24-32' ft) out of fiberglass, with marinized Vortec crate engines and SSI SE116 drive.

It seems to me that between 24 and 30 feet with one engine, the costs between building any of those sizes would be very close.

I bet you could build a very decent boat in lower quantities for far lower than Bayliner. Labor's comparatively cheap right now, could find a bunch of guys to do glass for $10-12/hr, with some REAL glass guys keeping an eye on things and making sure everything is done right.

Anyone got some molds I can borrow? :)

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2005 Crownline 316 LS "The Lucille"

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:38 #9

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Life is just not fair.



But it is expensive. :D

I'd rather have a 5.0L polluting Chevvy with an auto than a 1.2 Renault Clio. I'm glad you get to upset the Greens without paying through the nose for the joy.

Your vehicles can tow much larger capacities than ours, too.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:47 #10

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craig007;410213 wrote: But it is expensive. :D

I'd rather have a 5.0L polluting Chevvy with an auto than a 1.2 Renault Clio. I'm glad you get to upset the Greens without paying through the nose for the joy.

Your vehicles can tow much larger capacities than ours, too.


My GTO got 29mpg highway with the 5.7 @ 3700 lb. Not bad IMHO. My truck gets 20-21mpg at about 7200 lbs and far worse aerodynamics :)

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2005 Crownline 316 LS "The Lucille"

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 21:48 #11

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craig007;410213 wrote: But it is expensive. :D

I'd rather have a 5.0L polluting Chevvy with an auto than a 1.2 Renault Clio. I'm glad you get to upset the Greens without paying through the nose for the joy.

Your vehicles can tow much larger capacities than ours, too.


Point taken.

I daily drive a 2001 Chevy Suburban 2500 with a 6.0L, a 40 gallon fuel tank, and 4 wheel drive, which is something I am sure would make most UKers ball up into the fetal position. :) That said, I can still pull a rowhouse right off its foundation. :)

The XR4Tis were decent cars, but lets be honest...they're hobbyist cars at this point. I came dangerously close to buying a Mineral Blue '85 in mint condition a few years ago. I am sure it would have bankrupted me. :)

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Matt Train
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Chicagoland, IL

2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 22:03 #12

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Download_Complete;410217 wrote: Point taken.

I daily drive a 2001 Chevy Suburban 2500 with a 6.0L, a 40 gallon fuel tank, and 4 wheel drive, which is something I am sure would make most UKers ball up into the fetal position. :) That said, I can still pull a rowhouse right off its foundation. :)

The XR4Tis were decent cars, but lets be honest...they're hobbyist cars at this point. I came dangerously close to buying a Mineral Blue '85 in mint condition a few years ago. I am sure it would have bankrupted me. :)


They were junk and overweight. If you want a fast turbo from that vintage, get a Typhoon or a Syclone :)

I wrenched on an Xr4 with a friend of mine. Lots of mods and it sounded like a jet taking off but our turbo Volvo station wagon I'm pretty sure was still faster. Fortunately he forgot to put the oil breather air filter thingamajig on and it started on fire.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 23:29 #13

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How did we get onto cars as the subject of the thread. Lets talk about boat prices. BTW, with new boats going up and up, why are used prices continuing to spiral down?

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2010 Bayliner impressions 25 Jan 2010 23:42 #14

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No doubt prices are rising in any type of boat / car but who pays MSRP for any boat / car? Just means more room to negotiate IMO.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 26 Jan 2010 00:53 #15

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Just means more room to negotiate IMO


If the dealer's cost went up the same percentage as the MSRP then, there wouldn't be any more room to negotiate correct?

Any theories on why used boat prices are not going up?

Frank

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2010 Bayliner impressions 26 Jan 2010 01:14 #16

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Supply and demand- supply is up, demand is down.

If the economy gets legs under it, we might see a correction in used boat prices, but my gut is that for a whole lot of people, owning a boat will never be a reality. And I don't see young families with kids on the water, so I don't see a next generation of young potential boaters on the horizon.

A few years ago, the industry was selling (and producing) about 400,000 boats.

Last year the industry produced about 50,000 boats. That's ahuge drop in volume. lower volume = higher prices for parts and materials. And higher overhead cost per unit. Brunswick is addressing thsi by shutting plants down, which will help, but I suspect they will need only a small fraction of what they are capable of producing for dealers this year.

I wonder if boat prices have been artificially low- compare the cost of a 1960 Chris Craft 18 footer to what cars were selling for then, and that 185 price doesn't look out of line.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 26 Jan 2010 01:17 #17

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ftlee;410294 wrote: If the dealer's cost went up the same percentage as the MSRP then, there wouldn't be any more room to negotiate correct?

Any theories on why used boat prices are not going up?

Frank


It cuts both ways- if a dealer needs a certain percentage to cover his overhead, fixed costs, labor, taxes, etc, then he has to make more in dollars on the 2010 than on the 2009.

Since a dealer can sell consignment boats and make a 10% fee on them, with almost no overhead costs, most dealers need to make 15-20% on new boats to pay for the extra costs involved.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 26 Jan 2010 01:28 #18

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I don't get it at all -- new boat sales drop off a cliff, used prices drop off an even bigger cliff, and so what do the producers do? Raise prices! Yeah, that's a sure road to...something.

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1995 Bayliner Capri Cuddy 1952 (the little boat)
1983 Carver 32 Aft Cabin (the big boat)
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2010 Bayliner impressions 26 Jan 2010 22:58 #19

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There is around 40% markup on boats (between dealer invoice and MSRP). You mean to tell me in this market that manufacturers couldn't take the increased expenses out of this 40% and not increase the MSRP on their boats? Raising the MSRP on something you are not selling well (because people cannot afford it) doesn't seem like a wise decision to me...

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2010 Bayliner impressions 26 Jan 2010 23:25 #20

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ftlee;410688 wrote: There is around 40% markup on boats (between dealer invoice and MSRP). You mean to tell me in this market that manufacturers couldn't take the increased expenses out of this 40% and not increase the MSRP on their boats? Raising the MSRP on something you are not selling well (because people cannot afford it) doesn't seem like a wise decision to me...


Most manufacturers don't have a 40% mark up for MSRP-

But in any event, MSRP is just that- suggested. Raising the cost means that the dealer has to charge more for it than the previous year's model, and it is the dealer that sets the sales price. Manufacturers never absorb anything. They figure out what it costs them to build the boat, decide how much money the want to make, mark it up, and sell it to the dealer.

With fewer boats being produced, fixed costs (rent, insurance, property tax, etc) must be spread over fewer units. This raises the cost per unit to do business, which gets passed onto the dealer. He sells fewer units, so his fixed costs are spread over fewer units, so he has to be careful of his margin.

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2010 Bayliner impressions 27 Jan 2010 00:00 #21

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Trilo_G;410711 wrote: Most manufacturers don't have a 40% mark up for MSRP-

But in any event, MSRP is just that- suggested. Raising the cost means that the dealer has to charge more for it than the previous year's model, and it is the dealer that sets the sales price. Manufacturers never absorb anything. They figure out what it costs them to build the boat, decide how much money the want to make, mark it up, and sell it to the dealer.

With fewer boats being produced, fixed costs (rent, insurance, property tax, etc) must be spread over fewer units. This raises the cost per unit to do business, which gets passed onto the dealer. He sells fewer units, so his fixed costs are spread over fewer units, so he has to be careful of his margin.



There's a flip side to that, though. While I agree to your concepts in theory, boat prices are completely out of control. Back in 1986, it was possible for a blue collar, Joe Average family guy to buy a Bayliner 2450 and enjoy it. I do not believe that to be the case anymore....a Bayliner 245 cruiser is now a nearly $60,000 proposition. In 1986, a 2450 was $25,000, or about $10,000 more than your average luxury car.

Put another way, my fiancee and I make 6 figures, and we cannot justify ANY new Bayliner, let alone anything from a pricier make, when you add in the costs of housing, student loans, debt, and cost of living (which most people my age have).

I think Bayliner and the rest of the industry is in for a very rude awakening in 2010 and 2011 when the people they are trying to sell boats to turn away in droves.

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Matt Train
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2010 Bayliner impressions 27 Jan 2010 00:49 #22

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Ah...but Matt, you're using your head. And the fact is that a large number of boat purchases are purely emotional decisions.

I'd suggest that perhaps Bayliner is just slightly ahead of the business curve.

They know that people who want that new, shiny, it'll-change-your-lifestyle boat will find a way to purchase it now and then possibly figure out later that they can't afford it.

And when the goofy money comes back - and it will, it always does - people will spend $60K on a boat just like they spend $50K on a Suburban without a second thought, and rationalize how they can afford it and how much money they will actually save because they'll be spending the whole weekend on the water rather than in a hotel across the street from Six Flags and next to the expensive steak house.........

I remember 10 years ago in Austin, during the hi-tech boom, people were making a really good living buying boats in Florida, bringing them to Austin, and selling them for twice what they paid for them. People had lost their senses.

And they'll lose them again next time around. You watch.

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'99 2355 Ciera (SOLD)
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2010 Bayliner impressions 27 Jan 2010 01:16 #23

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FYI, in 1987 I purchased a 1987 2450 Ciera with trailer from dealer stock. It was just a tad above $21,000 out the door. Not a bad price at the time.

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Rick Grew

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2010 Bayliner impressions 27 Jan 2010 01:26 #24

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Twelve years after you I bought a brand new 2355 for $32K. Sticker then was over $50K.

And that was 11 years ago. Sticker now for a 245 is $60K? Seems about right.

That might seem outrageous to some. But have you priced a new F250 diesel pickup lately?

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2010 Bayliner impressions 27 Jan 2010 01:43 #25

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I found that the boats are getting biger I have seen
24 foot inflatables
28 foot bowriders
no cuddy's below 22 foot
and the smalest hard top the Discovery 266 (246 inc swimplatform)
the next HT is 28 foot

I miss the 222-2252 :( if I need to repleace mine i will have a hard time or go up to the Discovery "266"

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2252 HT

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