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TOPIC: Relying on the BOC and Transparency...

Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 12:43 #1

  • Gilligan
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I think I speak for many when I say this site is incredible and has:
saved me tons of money
tons of time
educated me
entertained me
and introduced me to some great people

I've come to trust the quick and accurate response I've needed - and I know others have too.

I also love the debates and find them equally helpful in opening my mind and really seeing different viewpoints - especially from some of the absolute experts here. Try walking into your local shop and striking up a conversation, much less find someone as knowledgable as the guys here - none of us is smarter than all of us.

With that said, some guys got banned over a recent thread - which I don't want to discuss. I want to discuss the transparency of the administration and what I feel is its obligation to inform the community it is trying to cultivate. I think we should know what's going on and therefore have an idea of what to expect from the community that we have joined and we contribute to, and trust in.

If members are banned we should, at the very least be notified. I understand the mods don't want to talk about their decision, so don't. But tell us what's going on please.
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Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 13:39 #2

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It is not always appropriate for me to publicly share details, or the decisions taken here, to manage the forum and its discipline. I will tell you that when time permits, the Mod team discusses situations and jointly arrives at the final decision. When immediate action is necessary, the Mods and I can and do take action alone. Regardless whether a decision is reached alone or by consensus, all our decisions are based on these rules .
Regards
Whiskywizard
[/COLOR]

Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while you could miss it.
- Ferris Bueller
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 15:04 #3

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I appreciate the response and I fully understand your point.

I'm just saying that in some cases (without going into details as requested by the mods) I think it's fair to let people know when a VERY active and respected contributor(s) have been asked to leave. Whether you agree or not, do you see my concern?


whiskywizard wrote: It is not always appropriate for me to publicly share details, or the decisions taken here, to manage the forum and its discipline. I will tell you that when time permits, the Mod team discusses situations and jointly arrives at the final decision. When immediate action is necessary, the Mods and I can and do take action alone. Regardless whether a decision is reached alone or by consensus, all our decisions are based on these rules .

.

Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 15:24 #4

  • freedre
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Gilligan wrote: I think I speak for many when I say this site is incredible and has:
saved me tons of money
tons of time
educated me
entertained me
and introduced me to some great people

I've come to trust the quick and accurate response I've needed - and I know others have too.

I also love the debates and find them equally helpful in opening my mind and really seeing different viewpoints - especially from some of the absolute experts here. Try walking into your local shop and striking up a conversation, much less find someone as knowledgable as the guys here - none of us is smarter than all of us.

With that said, some guys got banned over a recent thread - which I don't want to discuss. I want to discuss the transparency of the administration and what I feel is its obligation to inform the community it is trying to cultivate. I think we should know what's going on and therefore have an idea of what to expect from the community that we have joined and we contribute to, and trust in.

If members are banned we should, at the very least be notified. I understand the mods don't want to talk about their decision, so don't. But tell us what's going on please.


Good morning Mike,

I agree wholeheartedly with almost everything you say, except for the last part. Why do you feel you should be notified when someone is banned?

Personally, if I ever get banned, I hope no one knows about it. It's like opening it up to the court of public opinion.

Nothing good ever comes of this.
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History: 1996 - 2655, 2001 - 2855, 1984 - 3270
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 15:43 #5

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***Dancing around this is difficult but ill try.

I'm not trying to embarrass those banned - not at all. One recent banned member has been a huge contributor here and many (including me) rely on his expertise. In one case, just before the ban, a member was in contact with him over a delicate mechanical matter and was on the possible verge of making a very costly mistake - very costly. I happened to see it and put the two in touch offline in the hopes of avoiding the poor guy a lot of damage.

...that's my only point. To protect and inform those of us who have come to rely on the friends we've made here and I think it's fair to let us know when they are gone. Again, not to embarrass anyone or even argue with the Moderators.
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Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 16:21 #6

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The bans were short-term, and issued only after a public warning. The 4 members - all valued here - get their access back on July 6. That's the limit of what I'm comfortable discussing.
The following user(s) said Thank You: E_HILLMAN
Regards
Whiskywizard
[/COLOR]

Life moves pretty fast. If you don't stop and look around once in a while you could miss it.
- Ferris Bueller
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 16:29 #7

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Gilligan wrote: ***Dancing around this is difficult but ill try.

One recent banned member has been a huge contributor here and many (including me) rely on his expertise.
...that's my only point. .


Nothing to dance around. Long before the majority of the moderators ever heard of BOC, there were always squabbles, especially in the technical discussion section. Most of the "advice" given here to solve problems is garbage and only related to some distant issue someone had or heard about. Take it for what it is..junk. Along comes a real technical expert and the forum is soooooooooooo glad to put him in charge of technical discussion or rely on him for a ton of free expert advice. The question comes. In many cases, the answer is argued by the person asking the original question. The expert can only speak based on what is told to him and it usually pisses an expert off to have some hack argue with his answer. I am in advertising and when some hack argues with me, he may as well get ready to be crushed like a bug. Same with marine experts and believe me, most people working on boats are in no imaginable way experts on anything except guessing. We've had two GREAT experts here over the years. Even the two experts didn't always see eye to eye, but when experts argue, you learn. When idiots argue with experts, it just goes nowhere fast. If half the people here had to pay for answers to their questions, they might actually listen, buy a manual, or learn which end of the wrench is the high side. But, then again, maybe they wouldn't.
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 16:32 #8

  • Flash Jorden
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freedre wrote: Personally, if I ever get banned, I hope no one knows about it. It's like opening it up to the court of public opinion.


I know this is like an elephant tip-toeing on an iced over lake, but my $.02

I know folks have been banned, I know folks have been warned in the past. I know sometimes I have wondered why a particular member got a warning(s), while another member who seemingly committed the same/similar offense got a pass. I recognise this is BOC's sandbox, and we have to play by the rules. No problem there. Fairness and equitable application of penalties/punishments is what I'm most interested in. And that can only be achieved through transparency in my humble opinion. So maybe, without telling who got banned, maybe a general generic statement of the offense that led to the banning is more in order. That way we all can remain aware of want is allowed, and what isn't, and the ramifications and repercussions of such. For example, my employer puts out a Quartely Security Report, which gives snippets of bad behavior, a quote of the rule that was broken, and the punishment handed out (usually, "employee was dismissed"). Even with the rules sticky'd, folks do need reminding from time to time. I'm just sayin ...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 16:38 #9

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Whiskey - i thank you and undestand. No need to explain why. I was not aware the ban was short term and I appreciate your sharing that. I just hope no one feels slighted enough not to return - that would be a terrible waste.

David - That's EXACTLY how I feel. Personally, those Experts you mention should be more protected by the forum I think. They should be given status and treatment equal to what they bring to the table and should not be the ones held accountable for stating and standing up for what they know to be true. Frankly, if I were the expert I wouldn't argue at all but I know these guys and they hate to see someone follow bad advice.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.
.

Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 16:49 #10

  • Four Pyrates
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[quote="Flash Jorden" post=574378
I know this is like an elephant tip-toeing on an iced over lake, but my $.02

...[/quote]

Flash,

We got you covered down here in Alabama. We ain't afaid of no stinkin' ice. Cheryl Crow sings it for you. Time to Lighten Up.

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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 16:50 #11

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Gilligan wrote: Whiskey - i thank you and undestand. No need to explain why. I was not aware the ban was short term and I appreciate your sharing that. I just hope no one feels slighted enough not to return - that would be a terrible waste.

David - That's EXACTLY how I feel. Personally, those Experts you mention should be more protected by the forum I think. They should be given status and treatment equal to what they bring to the table and should not be the ones held accountable for stating and standing up for what they know to be true. Frankly, if I were the expert I wouldn't argue at all but I know these guys and they hate to see someone follow bad advice.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.


"EXPERTS"?

Who decides this?

And why can't they be argued with?

Sorry man, but this is getting ridiculous.
Midnight Star
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Twin diesels, Hino 250's
Ladysmith, BC
History: 1996 - 2655, 2001 - 2855, 1984 - 3270
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 17:01 #12

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freedre wrote:

Gilligan wrote: Whiskey - i thank you and undestand. No need to explain why. I was not aware the ban was short term and I appreciate your sharing that. I just hope no one feels slighted enough not to return - that would be a terrible waste.

David - That's EXACTLY how I feel. Personally, those Experts you mention should be more protected by the forum I think. They should be given status and treatment equal to what they bring to the table and should not be the ones held accountable for stating and standing up for what they know to be true. Frankly, if I were the expert I wouldn't argue at all but I know these guys and they hate to see someone follow bad advice.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.


"EXPERTS"?

Who decides this?

And why can't they be argued with?

Sorry man, but this is getting ridiculous.


+1

The rules need to apply to everyone and should be applied equally, This is a discussion board not an ask the expert board.
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 17:02 #13

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You're misreading me. The very few I'm thinking of -names withheld - are experts. And of course they can be argued with, or debated with. But at the end of the day most of us rely on the experts and seeing them banned is counterproductive IMHO.
.

Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 17:11 #14

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NWCruiser wrote:

freedre wrote:

Gilligan wrote: Whiskey - i thank you and undestand. No need to explain why. I was not aware the ban was short term and I appreciate your sharing that. I just hope no one feels slighted enough not to return - that would be a terrible waste.

David - That's EXACTLY how I feel. Personally, those Experts you mention should be more protected by the forum I think. They should be given status and treatment equal to what they bring to the table and should not be the ones held accountable for stating and standing up for what they know to be true. Frankly, if I were the expert I wouldn't argue at all but I know these guys and they hate to see someone follow bad advice.

Thanks for sharing your opinion.


"EXPERTS"?

Who decides this?

And why can't they be argued with?

Sorry man, but this is getting ridiculous.


+1

The rules need to apply to everyone and should be applied equally, This is a discussion board not an ask the expert board.



Fair enough. But then what about when a member starts a thread title with "...HELP (insert experts name)". He is specifically asking for a particular persons opinion when others jump in and it goes "against the rules".

Shouldn't this well respected "expert" be granted some courtesy in giving the opinion he was asked for?
.

Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
Last Edit: by Gilligan.
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 17:30 #15

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Gilligan wrote: Fair enough. But then what about when a member starts a thread title with "...HELP (insert experts name)". He is specifically asking for a particular persons opinion when others jump in and it goes "against the rules".
Shouldn't this well respected "expert" be granted some courtesy in giving the opinion he was asked for?


If it is posted in the forum it is open to all to comment. If the poster wants a specific persons help only then they can pm or email the member directly. It does not go against the rules to comment as long as it is reasonably on topic.

Pages and pages of beating a dead horse and arguing the same comments in the same thread whether you are a "expert" or not, well that leads to warnings. Please heed the warnings.

We are all friends and family here. We don't all along sometimes and sometimes some need a short vacation. A few take their vacation voluntarily (myself included)
Some need encouragement to chillax.

The only ones that that get banned without any warning are obvious spammers.
Boatless at this time

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including their life."
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 17:37 #16

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I agree, but in this example, the beating of the dead horse is brought on by people jumping into the thread. I'm saying I think good moderation would dictate telling the guy jumping in, to lay off. If its a question to the general public then the group should be told to let it go.

To me it's no different than a group conversation at a bar or the dock... Questions posed to the group are that. But I may turn to a particular friend to ask a question and while others can certainly chime in respect should be given to the OP and not derail the conversation he is trying to have - would you not agree?

And sure, we could all use PM but what's the point of that?
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Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 17:52 #17

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As a former Administrator and now a mod the past several years (decade?), we encourage open dialog and accept other ideas to get from A to B. We also constantly follow threads to ensure they stay on topic and try to get them back on track. When an obvious mistake is posted, we contact the member and ask to explain in detail or modify their post. When a member breaks the rules, we PM them and even call them to discuss and see if they will edit a post to clarify or delete an obvious rule break such as calling one out or name calling in a thread. We give them a warning to stop/fix/delete, etc. If violations continue, then we send them to ban camp. Typically a few days to cool off. 99.9% of those that are put into ban camp come back w/o fanfare, etc.

One can be put in ban camp or they can voluntarily stay away for a period of time. It all depends on the discussion behind the scenes. We spend a lot of time voluntarily ensuring this forum is the best it can be. We are human and we do make judgements that may be outside of ones beliefs. So be it.

Believe me, if one gets banned temporarily, it is not out of the blue for them. They know why and are told what consequences are coming if they continue.

FWIW, if anyone wants to volunteer to be considered for being a mod, please contact whiskywizard or other Mod's to discuss what it entails. We like fresh blood. Once you wear a Mod's shoes, you may have a better understanding of the dedication it takes to run a big forum like this and keep it civil...

I'm going boating... anyone else?
Doug ;}
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[SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 18:03 #18

  • CarpeNavicula
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Boating . . . Sounds like a GREAT idea!
2014 160 OB

“I have never understood why it is "greed" to want to keep the money you have earned but not greed to want to take somebody else's money.” 
― Thomas Sowell, Barbarians inside the Gates and Other Controversial Essays
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 18:11 #19

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Segue warning....


Not this weekend, my son comes home from his month on 2 week off slope job and I never go out on the major holidays here, most the nitwits are out

Next weekend though..

Un-segue

Again we have many experts here. Some tout their expertise some don't . Some are expert by way of 50 plus years of experience. Some have schoolin knowledge Again, if you only want answers from one then pm or email.
Boatless at this time

A veteran is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America," for an amount of "up to and including their life."
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 18:20 #20

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CarpeNavicula wrote: Boating . . . Sounds like a GREAT idea!


;) this entire thread seems childish. It's a boating forum for grown men with big bathtub toys. not exactly life or death here......
2850 bounty, aka Rick got banned!!!!!!! There! !!!
I think anyone who checks in once every day or two such as myself has noticed his lack of attendance.
Plus it says "BANNED" next to his s.n.
I myself was curious what it was about too but......

He is definitely a strong contributor to this site. That being said I know it's usually his way or the highway. Most of the time his way is right though.

Imo this site should be paying to have his tech support mostly in regards to the Volvo penta.
Last Edit: by scarab63.
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 18:27 #21

  • Flash Jorden
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Go Aweigh2452 wrote: FWIW, if anyone wants to volunteer to be considered for being a mod, please contact whiskywizard or other Mod's to discuss what it entails. We like fresh blood. Once you wear a Mod's shoes, you may have a better understanding of the dedication it takes to run a big forum like this and keep it civil...

I'm going boating... anyone else?


I've often considered raising my hand, however, having been a member of many online forums/discussion groups, and having seen how things go off the rails with all of the keyboard vigilantes, I know it would take a considerable amount of personal time to be an active, attententive moderator. My current life/schedule does not afford me that luxury. Hopefully one day it will.
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 18:28 #22

  • Gilligan
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Yeah Doug, I get it and appreciate the efforts of all involved. I'm not screaming and ranting, just discussing.

I also agree with, "we are all adults here", but wish skin was a little thicker. I've seen a lot of pissy fights because people's skin is just too thin.
.

Mike C.
1985 Bayliner Contessa Command Bridge :coo-
Brand New (2013) Custom Volvo Penta 7.4GL with Full closed cooling
Duo Prop and SS props:go-
Through hull exhaust with fiberglass mufflers and through hull raw water intake
35 Gal. FW Tank, 10 Gal. Holding Tank
9'6" Baltik Dinghy with Evinrude...
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 21:05 #23

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I just want to say that having been a volunteer leader in various guises (but not in this forum), I have come to understand that you can't please all the people all the time. As such, I want to publicly thank the members of this forum who take on these leadership roles knowing no matter what they do someone will always disagree with their decisions.

Ladies and Gentlemen, thank you for your time and effort. It is noticed, even if it's not too often said.
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 23:19 #24

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scarab63 wrote:

CarpeNavicula wrote: Boating . . . Sounds like a GREAT idea!


;) this entire thread seems childish. It's a boating forum for grown men with big bathtub toys. not exactly life or death here......
2850 bounty, aka Rick got banned!!!!!!! There! !!!
I think anyone who checks in once every day or two such as myself has noticed his lack of attendance.
Plus it says "BANNED" next to his s.n.
I myself was curious what it was about too but......

He is definitely a strong contributor to this site. That being said I know it's usually his way or the highway. Most of the time his way is right though.

Imo this site should be paying to have his tech support mostly in regards to the Volvo penta.


+1 and now we all suffer, unless we start to PM.
I don't know what happened in THE thread, and will never know, its been tidied up and locked.
What I do know is that members who rely on information from Rick and the others be it right or wrong will now have to wait for their return or contact them via PM.
Is this not just the opposite of a forum.?
Could not a different solution be found ?
Could the thread have been locked sooner, perhaps before the action was taken.
Or am I missing something, if so please let me know!
Every day spent above ground is a great day, Every day spent on the water is even better!
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Relying on the BOC and Transparency... 02 Jul 2014 23:36 #25

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Just my 2 cents.
Having been on both sides, once being given a holiday and having given holidays. I was warned via PM several times as is the case with almost every other member who has been given a holiday. I chose to ignore it at my peril and so did they. The result of ignoring those private warning is a holiday. People can either man up and take the lesson or not. As for the value of certain members, yes some have a lot to contribute but no one is irreplaceable.
If at some point the disruption one causes out weighs the value of ones contributions then a holiday is due and appropriate. If the member who received the holiday wants you to know the circumstance of their vacation please feel free to email or PM them and I am sure they will fill in the details for you.
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